Posted on 11/27/2005 12:16:08 AM PST by seastay
"I think it's the parents that have made the mistake and now they want the courts to fix it."
Parents in California would be making a mistake if they sent their kids to public schools that have 50% dropout rate and half don’t speak English at home. These christian kids are prepared more than public kids to go to the university, just on their English alone. For example, These private schools have a 75% success rate in admittance.
But now kids who have studied hard are being used as pawns because God was used in their curriculum, that probably consisted only of a few weeks of instruction, while at the same time these kids are beating hands down all other public school students as an average in SAT in all disciplines, including science.
As a parent of one in a Christian high school, I should know, that it has been the best decision I have made on education. If it turns out the UC system will not admit my child, no big loss, we have other places to spend our money, and wont look back either because decisions like this that weed out the best students, who are the most qualified with knowledge of all things, which incidentally includes Christianity, but are left out based upon some hidden affirmative action agenda, that will be another reason everyone with any real education equates university nowadays as liberal hotbeds that have no backbone when it comes to standards of the most qualified.
I said "creation biology as equivalent to real biology"
I know things are bad, but if any system makes those equivalent it is a wedge into the school classrooms.
No.
That comment makes no sense.
There needs be no broader theory for the sequences or proteins, DNA or geneoms to "make sense".
The details are there in hard data. The comparisons are what they are.
In fact, what you're saying isn't even true yet. As we were speaking before about the paucity of genome sequences, what you are saying cannot be supported experimentally yet.
How can you say comparing genome sequences makes no sense outside of a given theory when the data is not available that ostensibly is meant to test and confirm your statement/assumption?
There are private schools that do not teach Creationism in place of science. Parents make choices, often without thinking and sometimes on purpose. And they make mistakes. It's up to them to correct any mistakes they make, not the courts.
That wedge will never happen. There is no place for creationism in 'real' biology. I notice you use the word 'real'. Creationism is a philosophy or belief, imo. Not to discount it, but that is what it is. It has its place in philosophy classes.
But the objective of this suit is to get the UC system to recognize Creation Biology as academically equivalent to Real Biology. That would be a disaster.
That is the critical issue. The students can simply take the SAT test. If they pass, it will be no problem.
I have a suspicion that these "students" either did not take the SATs at all or scored very low. Indeed, I would want to know what their SAT math and verbal scores were. (Even for our diehard creationists, math and english should not be affected by creationist beliefs).
These "students" probably had 400s on their SAT math and verbal tests and are using this "discrimination" as a way to overcome their low academic standing.
That being the case, this lawsuit is identical to those who have asked for affirmative action in the past. Once again, we find that creationists are more like liberals.
This is not about teaching one subject in place of another, it about teaching something along side, so that our Christian kids end up learning more. This is about requiring our Christian kids who know more than the public school kids to have to jump thru extra hoops, and requiring parents to go out of their way, and in many cases enroll kids in schools that do not share their values, and in many instances in CA are unsafe to attend.
It is sad that these kids are being used as pawns on a national level, for an ID design debate.
It says "SAT subject test" which IIRC would be a Biology specific additional SAT test. Those are usually trickier than the normal SAT. Just like the GREs have several advanced tests. Maybe they don't want to take the additional test or pay the extra fee.
I bet their regular SAT scores are reasonable.
Not necessarily a disaster. The objective is whether biology classes meet admission standards. If a Creationist class also met the standards, it would be OK. Imo, there is nothing wrong about teaching creationism as long as the appropriate biology curriculum is taught. That is up to the university.
At that age, a student should also be presented with enough material and differing viewpoints to make their own choice. IMO, it is real travesty when the kids have had only one idea crammed into their head all their life.
Yes, I'd agree. But interestingly, and perhaps not coincidentally, the UC system is trying to downplay the SAT and lower its influence or remove it as a factor in being accepted.
If the kids are using a Creation text, then they are not learning the real science. If they can show they know enough biology, through the SAT subject test, then I say let them in. Or require a remedial course.
I don't want to see any one turned away, but I respect the university's right to set standards. Yes, the children are being used as pawns, but it is by their parents, not the university.
Excellent point. Well said.
No squawk with this, but the contention is that they are not being taught "appropriate biology curriculum" and so the university is rejecting their "biology" class.
Oxymoron. Creation is faith-based and that is OK. But don't even try to put it in the realm of science.
Someone whose background in biology is founded in Creationism wan't have the fundamental scientific knowledge of how biology works. They may know some of the suff, but the fundamentals would be lacking.
Correct. ;)
A placement test would solve the whole problem, IMO. Pass it or come back next year. Placement tests are already used in many universities in other subjects (math, English).
This would be a real problem in CA where things are twisted so much in favor of diversity that a placement test would likely mean a bunch of Asians and few of other minority groups being admitted.
Not that I disagree--Sociologists are just Anthropologists who couldn't find the right classroom that first day and never did figure out the difference.
The professor for the Sociology 101 class I took was a raving Marxist/Socialist. I've never considered Sociology to be any thing other than a pseudoscience since.
Some of the nonsense taught in some of the so-called social sciences give real science (including biology) a bad name.
Perhaps reading the post to which you reply would be a good idea as well. I for one made no attempt to address whether the non-biology material should be accepted or rejected. Thus, your attempt to understand that I did looks ... odd.
I've never seen a reasonable treatment of evolution by creation/ID sources. Thus was I noting that there's not the tiniest reason to think a Bob Jones U creationist textbook would convey anything scientifically educational.
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