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To: T.L.Sink

"Aside from some marketing errors made by GM this represents a huge liability for U.S. domestic manufacturers."

I'm one observer that believes "some marketing errors" is the true crux of the matter.

GM's falling market share is not tied to retirees' benefit costs; it is caused by consumers rejecting the products.

They have fared well with their "light truck" line; pickups and suvs.

They have:
--Continued with outdated pushrod motors, some decades old.
--Stopped their Camaro/Firebird line with NO replacements. (Meanwhile Ford's completely new Mustang sells very well, proving there IS a market; another market GM walked away from)
--Continued the Aztec, long after it was an industry laughing stock.
--Named a new Buick "Lucerne" instead of Roadmaster, or an other American car name.
--Continued a belief that by "badging" they fool buyers into thinking they make a wide selection of vehicles.
--Failed to have a real hybrid.
--Failed to introduce new rear wheel drive sedans.
--Failed to build old fashioned station wagons; which will increase in sales, due to downsizing from suvs.
--Backed away from ties to Subaru, an excellent company.
--Wasted billions with Fiat, a crappy company.
--Tried to foist an import from Australia as a GTO.
--Failed to introduce "youthful" vehicles, as can be seen by Toyota, Honda, VW, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Ford, etc.*

* Just as they failed to compete for the higher priced BMW-MB-Audi-Lexus-Infinity market, they now fail to compete with the youngest buyers.

These young buyers go for the makers' mentioned, such as Scion, Honda, VW, Suraru, etc. Small functional "different" styles, and high performance small cars.

In fairness, their all new Cadillac line include good cars. Mainly designed in Europe.

I contend that GM's Detroit design/engineering has otherwise died on the vine.

I think they should fire all top management, and a majority of the board of directors. They have been so afraid of risks, that they remained flatfooted, way too much, way too long.

I like my present GM car: A Swedish designed and built Saab, a company bought by GM which I fear they are in the process of misusing, before they screw it up.


6 posted on 11/27/2005 11:31:36 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: truth_seeker
In fairness, their all new Cadillac line include good cars. Mainly designed in Europe.

Which models in the current Cadillac line are designed in Europe? I haven't read or heard anything about that.
7 posted on 11/27/2005 11:36:45 PM PST by irishjuggler
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To: truth_seeker

If your SAAB is of recent vintage, it's actually a German design, not Swedish.


9 posted on 11/27/2005 11:49:44 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: truth_seeker

Some corrections, or comments, too -

1. That "import" GTO is probably the best Pontiac *ever*. GM needs to fire their Pontiac, Chevrolet, and Buick designers and put the Aussie designers of the GTO/Holden Monaro in charge. Best interior ever put in a US-market GM, best handling in a non-Vette/non-Caddy (have to allow for the STS/CTS) US-market GM.

2. It's not their "badging" that's necessarily a problem, it's their horrible platform engineering that is. Their idea of platform engineering for US platforms is to make one chassis that's generally acceptable in terms of sizing specs, and then slap slightly different versions of sheetmetal on the outside to make the different models. Meanwhile, Nissan made one bad-@$$ platform, the FM, for the Nissan 350Z, and then made a BUNCH of different, excellent cars off that platform, some that handle and ride better than their BMW competitors! And it's almost impossible to tell that they're all the same chassis! (For the record, in the US the cars on that FM platform are the 350Z, the Infiniti FX35, FX45, G35, G35 Coupe, M35, and M45. Overseas, the Nissan Skyline V35 is also on the FM chassis.)
3. The failure to introduce new quality non-Cadillac RWD sedans is a complete mystery, especially since (if they wanted to) they could have some kick-@$$ rear wheel drive cars here in a year, courtesy of their Australian and European divisions.
4. Those "Youthful" Toyotas, aka Scions, as it turns out, are not being bought by the youth. They're being bought by soccer moms and the over-40 set.


11 posted on 11/28/2005 12:00:59 AM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: truth_seeker
I contend that GM's Detroit design/engineering has otherwise died on the vine.

Have you considered the possibility that the GM design/engineering work has already been outsourced to India? A fair bit of Ford's design/engineering staff has already been moved there. I've worked on projects tied to engineering organizations at both companies. Some of the offices don't exist anymore.

12 posted on 11/28/2005 12:01:42 AM PST by Myrddin
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To: truth_seeker
Thought you'd enjoy this similar assessment of GM's Aztec fiasco. My first thought when I saw that car was "Just damn! Aren't they supposed to shoot those things when they get that bad?"

A well run company will do what is obviously correct.

A great example of this committee stuff is General Motors. I am sure you have seen the Aztec vehicle. When it came out it was the most ugly vehicle I had ever seen. The problem is NOT the Aztec, but the fact the product actually GOT TO MARKET!!! Anyone with a brain could see instant failure. I certainly did! Thankfully, the market also agrees with me, even if people don’t!!!

Of course the market studies right now show that the Aztec has the highest customer satisfaction of any GM vehicle sold. I would think it has to have the highest customer satisfaction if you did actually get a customer to buy one! It would really have to be blind love!

Of course now the problem is not that the vehicle is so ugly, but the fact that they only sold 10,000 units. GM is now desperately trying to figure out what to do with this flop.

17 posted on 11/28/2005 2:28:24 AM PST by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: truth_seeker

Many of your points are quite valid, but criticizing them for sticking with pushrod technology is not fair, I think. Their engines are fine...look at the LS7. Pushrod engine. Also, DCX is also using pushrod engines (like the Hemis), and doing quite well with them.

Meanwhile, Ford, which has OHC engines, is most behind the curve on power.


23 posted on 11/28/2005 7:06:21 AM PST by B Knotts
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To: truth_seeker

I think you make many excellent points about marketing failures on GM's part. I was only saying that in addition to those failures the healthcare liabilities add another billion dollars to the problem. In decades past there was only the "big three" (GM, Ford, Chrysler) and GM was so huge it could almost dictate fashion. Now Ford has been bumped from number 2 by Toyota and Chrysler isn't even the running. Also, the business today is completely internationalized. Ford owns Jaguar, Volvo, Kia, Mazda, etc. What is a "foreign" car? A VW manufactured in PA or a Kia assembled in South Korea? Where are the 60,000 parts made that are needed for the average vehicle? All over the world. But it's still a fact that Japan has an enormous competitive advantage because it provides complete healthcare for all its native workers. The competition has been good because it's forced American manufacturers to greatly improve quality control and be more innovative. The enormous healthcare liability isn't the ONLY problem but it's a significant one.


31 posted on 11/28/2005 9:04:52 AM PST by T.L.Sink (stopew)
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To: truth_seeker
I agree with the points in your post, but to clarify for those who might not know, This:

Tried to foist an import from Australia as a GTO.

Is as a direct result of this:

Failed to introduce new rear wheel drive sedans.

GM lacked a RWD platform for the new GTO, so they had to go to Holden to "borrow" one. Not a bad move, given the alternative. People want a FWD GTO like they want a skinny Santa.

35 posted on 11/28/2005 9:48:53 AM PST by Doohickey (If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice...I will choose freewill.)
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