Dutch Politicans Seek Marijuana Rules (Marijuana farming regulated on the model of tobacco)

Associated Press ^ | Dec. 2, 2005

[robertpaulsen]

Hey!

[robertpaulsen]

"BRITISH teenagers are among the heaviest drinkers in their age group in Europe, a new study has found. Only teenagers in Ireland and the Netherlands recorded higher levels of drinking than in Britain ..."

"Researchers blamed the national culture for failing young people and not giving them a responsible attitude towards alcohol."
-- thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1430282004

As I said, you're trying to compare two different cultures and drawing some conclusion using their laws as the basis. You can't do that.

European teens prefer alcohol over marijuana. Twice as many binge drink as the U.S., and half as many smoke marijuana. That's just the way it is.

For you to conclude that it's due solely to their laws is unsupported and irresponsible.

[Nipplemancer]

If they do allow cannabis farming they'll be in violation of the UN's Single Convention on Narcotics (silly name since it's focus is all drugs not just narcotics). The UN may have to sanction The Netherlands for growing pot, yet they refuse to do so because Iran is making nukes. Funny how these things go.

[Wolfie]

Perhaps they'll just follow the lead of the Swiss:

Switzerland Defends Cannabis Decrim, Tells UN Narcocrats to Buzz Off (2002)

As Switzerland moves forward with its plans to decriminalize the possession and some sales of cannabis, the International Narcotics Control Board (INCB) is in a snit. But the independent-minded Swiss have told the global prohibition enforcers to take a hike. Under the decrim plan, supported by the Swiss government and already passed by the Swiss Senate, possession and growing of cannabis for personal use will be permitted, as will limited sales of the drug. But cannabis imports and exports will be banned, as will advertising.

The INCB (http://www.incb.org) is an independent, quasi-judicial body set up under the UN Single Convention of 1961 to enforce the global prohibition regime whose backbone is the Single Convention and two later treaties. In its latest annual report, the INCB called the Swiss move to treat cannabis like alcohol or tobacco "a historic mistake" and warned that it would "amount to an unprecedented move towards legalization of the consumption, cultivation, manufacture, possession, purchase and sale of cannabis for non-medical purposes."

Worse yet in the INCB's eyes, such a move would contravene the UN Single Convention. "Allowing people to sell cannabis to anybody for non-medical reasons is simply not in line with the conventions," INCB secretary Herbert Schaepe told Swiss Radio International. "If this is the case, it goes against the 1961 Convention on Narcotic Drugs. It would not be acceptable, since Switzerland's neighbors don't seem to be going down the same road," Schaepe added -- seemingly unaware of the wave of drug reform sweeping the continent.

The Swiss aren't buying it. "I've heard more people say it was a historic mistake to put cannabis on the list of substances that are totally prohibited," said Ueli Locher, deputy director of the Federal Office for Public Health. "We have to adapt to the changes in our society. We know more about how harmful -- or harmless -- cannabis is," he told Swiss Radio. "We cannot continue to treat it like heroin and cocaine."

The Swiss government has also had four independent legal assessments of the proposed cannabis law, and it said all four found the law to be consistent with the conventions. Under the law, cultivation and sale would technically remain illegal, but prosecutions would be few and far between. Sellers would be arrested only for selling to minors, selling hard drugs at the same time, or creating a public nuisance. The proposed law would only codify what is a de facto -- if differentially enforced -- decriminalization now. With an estimated half-million Swiss smoking cannabis, the herb is currently available under a variety of transparent guises, such as cannabis "potpourri" or aromatic cannabis pillows filled with kind bud. The assumption is that most pillow purchasers are smoking the contents rather than resting their heads on them.

INCB secretary Schaepe warned that it is the obligation of governments to uphold the conventions, but also added some words that indicate the global drug warriors may be beginning to see the handwriting on the wall. "The conventions are not cast in stone. They can be amended," he conceded. "Ultimately, it is in the hands of governments to decide future drug policies." But, global prohibition bureaucrat that he is, Schaepe added, "there is a procedure that has to be followed. We cannot have a lawless situation at the international level."

For the health office's Locher, the move is pragmatic response to Swiss social reality. "We are trying to deal with the reality -- to have and honest and consistent approach to a problem -- and not continue to have laws which are not applied," he said. "Time will tell whether cannabis is also reconsidered at the level of international conventions."

[TKDietz]

I never said that it was solely due to their laws. Laws do have some effect though, especially when we are talking about teens because parents help enforce the laws. Police are not around our children all the time to make them comply with laws, parents are. Parents can to some extent see that their kids are not out drinking. In Europe though, attitudes about teen drinking are different, that is both culture and laws coming into play. The law reflects the culture and that's why they have lower drinking ages and the laws with respect to teen drinking are not heavily enforced. The law isn't really stopping these teens from drinking, their parents aren't, so like teens everywhere they tend to abuse it and go a little crazy with drinking because they can. I think our teens would do the same if given the same opportunities.

Now, we aren't talking about laws for teens though. We're talking about laws for grown ups with respect to marijuana use. We're talking about people old enough to know better who don't have mommy and daddy there to keep tabs on them and keep them in line. When it comes to adult marijuana use, I don't think the laws make much difference. I don't think there are a lot of adults out there who want to smoke marijuana but don't because it is illegal. I'm sure there are some, but not that many, and I don't think we have to worry about those types as much because they have already proven they have the willpower to control their urge to smoke marijuana. For the most part these aren't the ones who would be problem users anyway.

You seem to think that Dutch adults are better able to handle freedom with respect to marijuana use than American adults. I think that's bullcrap. I think American adults could handle the freedom to possess and use small amounts of marijuana just as well as adults from other countries. We live in what is supposed to be a free republic. Americans are a strong people, a good people, people capable of handling freedom. We could handle the same freedom the Dutch enjoy with respect to marijuana and do fine just like the Dutch are doing. Most still wouldn't do it even if it was legal.

If you have so little confidence in the American people, why would you want to live among us? Why wouldn't you want to go to another country where the people are more responsible and trustworthy? We could do with one less busy body who wants to micromanage everyone else's lives.

[TKDietz]

"If they do allow cannabis farming they'll be in violation of the UN's Single Convention on Narcotics"

The Dutch will do it just like they've done it with the coffee shops for more than three decades. They'll say it's illegal, but just allow it to go on anyway. The unwritten rule will be that if these farmers do it the way the government wants them to do it they won't be arrested and/or their operations will be shut down. They'll have rules to follow and if they follow those rules they'll be allowed to operate. The industry will be regulated, just as retail marijuana sales are regulated in the coffee shop system. But the government will claim it's all technically illegal, wink, wink. Some countries will complain, but not that much. Their neighbors will actually be better off because with government controls on production it will be less likely that large amounts of pot are smuggled from Holland into their countries.

The days are numbered for provisions in these international treaties and conventions dealing with marijuana. Sooner or later they'll be amended to allow for nations to have regulated production and sales if they want. They'll just be rewritten to allow it but international law will require safeguards be put in place to minimize the flow of marijuana from countries were it is legal to those where it is not, not that that really matters. As it is today there really aren't any western nations where marijuana isn't already readily available.

[robertpaulsen]

"We're talking about laws for grown ups with respect to marijuana use."

And as the Alaskan teen study showed, those "adult" laws have zero effect on teens.

"I don't think there are a lot of adults out there who want to smoke marijuana but don't because it is illegal."

Well I do. Marijuana use in this country was as high as 14% in the late 70's, and it was illegal. To say that legalized marijuana use wouldn't rise to at least that level is pure denial.

"You seem to think that Dutch adults are better able to handle freedom with respect to marijuana use than American adults."

No. I "seem to think" that people who try to compare different cultures and conclude that laws explain the difference in the use of one drug among those cultures is naive.

[robertpaulsen]

"If you have so little confidence in the American people, why would you want to live among us?"

Because I like our current drug laws. You don't.

The better question is why would YOU want to live among us? Why wouldn't YOU want to go to another country where the people are more responsible and trustworthy when it comes to marijuana?

Our country could ALWAYS do with one less lawyer.

[Know your rights]

the Alaskan teen study

Ah, yes, the alleged "study" for which neither so little as title nor names of authors has ever been produced. We might as well base public policy on what you say your unicorn told you.

[Know your rights]

regulating marijuana cultivation would set the Netherlands another step apart from the rest of the continent.

And this would be a bad thing how?

[Wolfie]

And such a minor step, at that. Much of Western Europe allows personal cultivation already. They just aren't as fanatic about Reefer Madness as the U.S. is.

[Mojave]

If you have so little confidence in the American people, why would you want to live among us?

The American people created the laws that you're railing against.

[TKDietz]

"The American people created the laws that you're railing against."

And I am confident the American people will change our marijuana laws in the next couple of decades. By the way though, the American people didn't have much to do with marijuana being made illegal. Congress did this at a time when most Americans didn't even really know what marijuana was. The Congressmen at the time probably didn't know much about it either. They might have seen bogus tabloid scare stories by Randolph Hearst and company and they heard a little testimony put on by the drug czar at the time, Harry Anslinger. They heard from one "expert" that he had once smoked it and it turned him into a bat, and that marijuana had been injected into rats and it did bad things to them. They also heard something about white women and black jazz musicians and that the American Medical Association was for banning it when in fact they were not for banning it at the time. It was kind of a kangaroo court proceeding back in 1937. Support for legalizing and regulating it similar to the way alcohol is regulated has steadily grown and according to all the polls is now at close to 40%. Most Americans 55 and under have smoked it. Support for legalizing it will probably continue to grow slowly but surely and as younger generations of Americans take the reins in government we're going to see our current laws change. It is only a matter of time.

[Mojave]

I am confident the American people will change our marijuana laws

Laws constantly change. The question is, how much?

[TKDietz]

Hopefully all the way such that marijuana is regulated similar to alcohol from production/importation all the way to retail sales and beyond. We don't want some halfway "coffee shop" type system like the Dutch have leaving us with the problems they are trying to correct now.

[Mojave]

Hopefully all the way such that marijuana is regulated similar to alcohol from production/importation all the way to retail sales and beyond.

No more "medical" marijuana?

[TKDietz]

The sooner the better.

[Mojave]

The sooner the better.

Away with such quackery.

[Nate505]

I predict that the sky will litearlly fall from the earth the day this demon weed is planted, and rapes of white women and instances of young hooligans listening to negro jazz music will increase exponentially.