What this guy doesn't realize is that there are many fans of the Bible that are also fans of 'Tallica.
Posted on 12/05/2005 1:56:34 PM PST by emiller
Human rights and church groups have joined the international outcry over the death penalty after murderer Kenneth Lee Boyd became the thousandth American prisoner to be executed since the reinstatement of capital punishment in 1976.
But experts also say that “unwavering belief in retribution” based on the selective interpretation of biblical texts by Christian fundamentalists is part of what keeps the “state killing culture” alive.
In spite of a record 105 countries choosing to abolish capital punishment, America has continued to embrace it, accounting for most of the world's known executions, along with China, Iran and Vietnam.
(Excerpt) Read more at ekklesia.co.uk ...
I wonder what this crack-head would blame my support of the death penalty on? My unwavering agnosticism?
The only 100% guaranteed method of preventing further commission of crime......how in the world can anyone argue with that? Militant
So how do they account for people like me who support the death penalty without basing my reasons on the Bible?
How about an unwavering belief that dead people don't kill people?
showing that the death penalty is no deterrent.
I like to point out to these a$$hats that the death penalty is the ONLY thing keeping me from killing them.
Well at least we can agree about something (sarc off)
Bad ol' fundamentalists again.
So what? If X jumped off a cliff would you? Why should internal US policy be dictated by other countries?
I suppose a better idea would be to keep prisoner incarcerted indefinitely at taxpayer expense?
Confusing religion and state. Common enough, but America is not Europe or the Middle East, so forget it. Besides, Christianity is a NT thing, and the OT is fulfilled and chapter closed.
I 'd say we've got some catchin' up to do.
Strange, the article refers to the "selective interpretation of Biblical texts," but does not actually give any examples. In fact, it does not quote the Bible at all.
When you can't blame Bush, you can always blame God. "For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoes. (Romans 13:3,4)
I LOVE it!
Good for yopu. Because you are right!
Perhaps if the Bible were taken a bit more seriously by the US murderous thug culture we wouldn't need to execute so many of them.
Deterrence is an unprovable side effect.To know how many have been deterred one must poll all non capital offenders and have them admit they would have committed a capital crime if not for the possibility of execution.
The way those opposed to capital punishment want to use the numbers would mean that since prison time of any kind did not deter those inside from committing a crime,prison should be abolished(probably what they believe anyways).
A strawman arguement.
What this guy doesn't realize is that there are many fans of the Bible that are also fans of 'Tallica.
They left Japan off the list.
Only 1000? We had over 2300 people killed here in california last year alone and how many of their killers will be executed?
Yep, it's that Bible that makes China execute their prisoners. That's it.
Well the critics are full of shiite. The statistics show no such thing. The stats show how many convicted KILLERS are executed - period.
Plus they are arguing a negative. There are NO stats as to say how many armed robbers never pull the trigger BECAUSE of the DP. Or how many people who DON'T go home and 'get a gun' when pi$$ed. I'd even guess that if the penalty was only like 7-10 years for killing someone, MORE people would be fatally shot.
Racism my butt you jackasses and let's DO talk stats. Yeah blacks comprise 14% of the population, but they commit 68% (IIRC) of the murders.
And here's MORE stats - if the FBI didn't play with its crime reporting methods and include Hispanics as 'white', the percentage of white on black hate crimes would be about ZERO and the percentage of 'whites' committing murders would be about 8% (going by memory) - now that's racism.
Retribution? That would be a misreading of the NT and Christianity. That's more of an OT belief.
The reason executing murderers is supported in the US is because we prefer to protect ourselves from murderers, and there is only one way to do so.
Click the Pic J ....in a few short weeks it will be spring. The snows of winter will flow away, the ice will vanish, the air will become soft and balmy.The annual miracle of the years will awaken and come to pass. The rivulet will run its soaring course to the sea. The timid desert flowers will put fourth their tender shoots. The glorious valleys of this imperial domain will blossom as the rose. From every tree top, some wild songster will carol his mating song. Butterflies will sport in the sunshine. But you will not be here to enjoy it. Because I command the sheriff of the county to lead you away to some remote spot, swing you by the neck from a bough of some sturdy oak and let you hang until you are Dead, Dead, Dead! You cold-blooded, blood-thirsty, throat-cutting, murdering son of a bitch. .....Judge Roy Bean |
I agree with Bean....
Genesis 9:6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his
shed; for in the image of God has God made man.
b'shem Y'shua
General George S. Patton, my hero, said about "Thou shall not kill" types. He called them "pulpit killers!" "These pulpit killers that go around saying that the Bible says that man dare not kill...Damn little those pulpit killers know about the Bible. They know even less about the way God works. Don't talk to me about God not permitting man to kill. War means that we have to kill people. That's all there is to it. There is no other way to win. Wars must be won for God's sake. He has a part in every war! The quicker we can kill the enemy, the quicker we can go home and listen to the pulpit killers tell us what we did wrong. If it wasn't for us, those pulpit idiots would be shot for standing in their own pulpits. Our task is to kill the enemy before we are killed."...
Has nothing to do with “retribution.” Has to do with JUSTICE. Also has to do with OBEDIENCE and being able to follow directions.
The murdered person’s soul is already with God. That soul waits with God for the arrival of the murderer’s soul so JUDGMENT can be properly rendered. Not “human” judgment – the Real Deal.
It’s pretty simple but goes right over a lot of heads… especially “experts” and the like. It also tends to suggest that your physical existence isn't the be-all end-all.
That sort of thing tends to upset their little apple cart. Forces them to address (at some point) their insignificance and mortality.
The death penalty has existed in cultures which never knew the Bible.
No, China executes many more people than the USA.
I do believe Indonesia is still in the business, having hung an Australian drug dealer just recently.
105 countries would like to have the standard of living that is enjoyed in the United States!
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CAPITAL PUNISHMENT |
Capital punishment was instituted by God Himself after the worldwide flood. We learn of this in Genesis 9:6--"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." This verse speaks of a murderer, one who knowingly and violently sheds another man's blood, resulting in death. God here gives man the authority and the right and the duty to put to death the murderer: "by man shall his blood be shed." The reason given for this is based upon the value and sacredness of human life: "for in the image of God made he man." In this case we have justice being carried out according to the rule: "life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth" (Exodus 21:23-24). The penalty should fit the crime. In this case the crime is murder and the penalty is death. Notice that Genesis 9:6 was given to man even before the law of Moses was given.
Capital punishment is not a violation of the sixth commandment which says, "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13). The proper translation of this verb is "Thou shalt not murder." See modern translations (such as the NASB, the NIV and the NKJV) and also see Matthew 19:18 in the KJV. All murder is killing but not all killing is murder. Some examples of killing that would not be considered as murder are as follows: a) killing the enemy in war (Bible examples: David killing Goliath, Joshua and the Israelites when they conquered the land); b) a husband, discovering a man about to kill his wife and/or children, protects and defends his family by having to kill the attacker; c) a policeman who kills in the line of duty in order to protect innocent life; d) the person carrying out capital punishment, such as the man who must pull the switch for the electric chair; e) accidental killing, when the killer never intended to take someone's life. We should also note that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself will "judge and make war" at His second coming resulting in countless numbers of deaths (Rev. 19:11-20).
We are assured that capital punishment is not a violation of the 10 Commandments. This is evident when on Exodus chapter 21 (the 10 Commandments are found in chapter 20). In chapter 21 we learn that God in His law demanded the death penalty for a number of crimes such as murder, kidnapping, cursing parents, etc. See Exodus 21:12,15,16,17. See also Leviticus 20:10-17 for other crimes punishable by death in the law of Moses.
In New Testament times we find that capital punishment was still being practiced. In Romans 13:4 we learn that God has given human governments the authority to execute wrath upon evildoers by means of a sword (a common instrument of capital punishment in New Testament days). The Apostle Paul was living in a day when capital punishment w commonly practiced in the Roman empire (quite unlike our day), and yet he does not condemn this practice. On the contrary he describes the person who bears the sword as being God's servant. Thus the one punishing the person who does evil does so in the exercise of God's delegated authority.
Capital punishment, when consistently practiced, is a very effective deterrent to crime. This is because the fear of death is the greatest fear that man has (see Hebrews 2:14-15). Because death is the king of fears, a man will think twice about committing a crime if he knows it will cost him his life. He will be much less reluctant to murder someone if he knows that the worst that could happen to him is to stay in jail the rest of his life with meals provided, television to watch, etc. When swift justice is carried out then "those who remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil" (Deut.19:20). When the right penalty is not executed speedily, then this is an encouragement to crime (see Eccles. 8:11).
Isn't capital punishment very cruel and inhumane? Death is usually not pleasant to witness, and certainly those responsible for putting a criminal to death do not have an enviable task. Nevertheless we need to be careful that we do not focus on the criminal and forget about the victim of the crime. Cold-blooded murder is very cruel and inhumane. Forcible rape is very cruel and inhumane. Hijacking an airplane and endangering the lives of many innocent people is very cruel and inhumane. Pushing life-destroying drugs is very cruel and inhumane. In our zeal to protect the criminal we have lost sight of the terribleness of the crime. Regardless of a person's position on capital punishment, all would have to agree that if a murderer is put to death, he will never murder again. It is remarkable that those people who decry capital punishment as being a cruel and inhumane method of destroying people's lives are often the same people who are strongly in favor of abortion rights. Why does a guilty murderer have a greater right to life than an unborn child?
What did the Apostle Paul think of capital punishment? Did he consider it to be unfair and cruel and inhumane? We have already considered Paul's teaching in Romans 13, but we should also make note of what the Apostle said in Acts 25:11: "If I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die." Paul knew that there were certain crimes that were worthy of death, and he knew that those guilty of such crimes must be executed. If he was guilty of such, then he would not refuse to die. He would submit to capital punishment if he had done deeds worthy of such. Of course, Paul was innocent of any such crimes, and yet he was eventually executed under Nero. For what crime? For preaching the gospel of the grace of God!
Even uncultured men know deep down in their hearts that certain crimes demand the deat This is illustrated in Acts 28 when Paul was shipwrecked upon the island of Melita (Malta) where he met a group of kindly barbarians (v.1-2). As Paul was gathering sticks for the fire, a deadly venomous snake bit him on the hand. Normally such a bite would be fatal in a matter of minutes. When the natives saw this they said, "No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet justice alloweth not to live" (v.4). These natives saw what they thought was the penalty (death) and thus they assumed the crime (he must be a murderer). They soon learned that they were mistaken, but the point is that these barbarians had a built in sense of justice and they knew that murderers should pay for their crime by death.
In Luke chapter 23 we have the honest testimony of a man who was being put to death for crimes he had done. This was capital punishment by means of Roman crucifixion. This man was an evildoer, he was arrested, and he was found guilty of crimes worthy of death. Modern methods of execution are generally very mild and painless as compared to Roman crucifixion. What did this man think of capital punishment? Was he opposed to it? Did he consider it to be cruel and inhumane? Did he think it to be unfair and unjust? Here is his testimony (his words to the other condemned criminal): "Dost thou not fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds" (Luke 23:40-41). In other words, he was saying, "We are getting exactly what we deserve: death by crucifixion. What we have done is worthy of death!" Before men and before human government most of us are not guilty of crimes worthy of death. However, before a Holy God every one of us needs to recognize that we have done certain things that are worthy of death (see Romans 1:29-32; 6:23a). As the Old Testament says, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4). How thankful we should be that our Lord Jesus Christ suffered the death penalty for us: "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8).
If capital punishment is practiced, would not there be times when an innocent man is pronounced guilty and put to death? Yes, this is true. Our judicial system is far from perfect and there are times when the guilty are justified and the innocent are condemned (compare Deut. 25:1). Even without the death penalty, it is true that occasionally some innocent men are sent to prison even for life. We must remember that there is in heaven a true and righteous Judge who sees all and who knows all and who someday will make right all that is wrong and will straighten out all that is crooked. In eternity, all will be corrected (see Luke 16:25 for an example of this). The greatest example of an innocent man being put to death is that of the Lord Jesus Himself, "who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth" (1 Pet. 2:22). The only sinless Man who ever lived was condemned to death by crucifixion! As we think about Christ's death, we must remember that it was for our sins that He suffered and bled and died (1 Cor. 15:3; Rom. 5:8). "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just (the Righteous One) for the unjust (the unrighteous ones), that he might bring us to God" (1 Pet. 3:18). We are the guilty ones who deserved the death penalty (Rom. 6:23), but Jesus paid it all! He died so that we might live (John 5:24)!
--George Zeller
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The Middletown Bible Church |
More articles under Doctrinal Studies
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The Bible and Capital Punishment James Patrick Holding http://www.tektonics.org/af/cappun.html
Next on our list of social issues and the Bible: Capital punishment. Is it right or wrong? Is it necessary? The issue is tied into a number of contexts, and we will discuss those only briefly; our main concern, as always, is the Bible's take on the matter and whether a case can be made either pro or con. We'll also be able to look at certain social factors and how they might apply today. All con-arguments below are from J. Gordon Melton's The Churches Speak on Capital Punishment, a helpful compiliation of various church's statements on this subject.
Does the Bible support capital punishment?
Few would answer this one in the negative and fewer can cite any Scripture that works against it. It is patently obvious that capital punishment (hereafter CP) was practiced in ancient Israel and was not repudiated in the NT at all. Some have tried to find an implicit Scriptural reason to reject CP, but we will see below that such efforts take their cites out of context. On the other hand, one must carefully distinguish between saying that the Bible mandates CP and saying that it merely permits CP. This relates to an important sub-issue: Examples of CP appear overwhelmingly in the OT law and it is prescribed for such things as adultery and witchcraft. So should we be enforcing it likewise today? No, not on that basis.
On this point let's repeat something we offered in another essay on the role of the law today. Deuteronomy is laid out in the form of an ancient treaty between a king and his vassals. It is in essence a contract between God and Israel. They "signed on" and agreed to enforce the penalties. What's the equivalent now? We now have a new covenant or contract between Christ and the individual and the believer. The sins are paid for by Christ's blood, and he takes on the punishment for the transgression of those who break God's law and accept his payment. The old covenant and our enmity with it is now abolished (Eph. 2:15). The non-believer, the witch, et al. aren't covered by this, but nor does our new contract contain specifications of enforcement -- that is now God's domain, with regard to each individual, on the basis of the new covenant terms. On the other hand, when a superior writes a contract, even if you are not a party to it, the contract will still give you an idea what values the superior holds to. We no longer enforce the penalties, but we still know what actions displease God, and the NT does say that God has given authority to human governments. So, it is now up to those bodies to decide whether CP is necessary.
So what is the role of the law here? It does tell us that God does approve CP as a means of justice, but should we use it today, and in what contexts?
This moves us to our next key point: Why did these laws demand the death penalty? Many Skeptical complaints about the Bible and CP focus on this point, but such objections are time out of mind. As shown in Crenshaw's Education in Ancient Israel, obeying such laws was a matter of survival, of ensuring that what there was of civilization did not slip over that fine line from order into chaos. CP was a necessary element to social order and survival.
This naturally leads to a predominant point in the CP debate today. A primary pro-CP argument is that CP serves as a deterrent to crime. Anti-CP responses claim there is no evidence of a deterrent effect. The issue seems actually to miss a point. The lack of deterrent effect may have something to do with that we don't see the death penalty as real in our minds. Executions are far removed from all but a few witnesses, and only one person pulls the switch or administers the drug. In contrast, CP by the OT law was enforced by the community picking up stones and taking part after the condemnation of guilt. One might suggest that the deterrent effect would be greater (and that we might be more cautious in other areas) were CP more in our face and personal, as it was for the Israelites.
It is not our place here to speak to deterrence as a reason for CP, in the modern world. There are too many societal differences (survival needs, and particularly the difference in our culture as individualistic versus collectivist) to make an easy comparison. Even one cited example by the con-side of pickpockets plying their trade at a hanging of one of their fellows for the same crime is too simple: In such cases there were balances of risk, matters of survival and chances that were taken in that light. It is clear, however, that our theoretical level of deterrence has never approached that of the ancients -- and that there is a general principle that any behavior that threatens society as a whole may be considered worthy of the ultimate penalty.
So what now threatens society? In our present state, many of the OT crimes are not threats to society in a broader sense. Things like adultery weaken a family unit, but not, in themselves as actions of individuals, society as a whole; if enough people become adulterous, though, that may change! If a behavior like adultery became a threat to such an extent, one might argue that CP should be instituted for it at some point, but because our society is individualistic rather than collectivist, it is unlikely that that will ever happen, and we would naturally expect to try lesser measures first.
A thoughtful determination would therefore have to be made in terms of what behaviors might threaten society to the level that CP is needed as a deterrent -- though again, this ties in to our point above that CP as it now stands is not much of a deterrent at all!
Are there any cites in the Bible against capital punishment? To be sure, some efforts have been made to find Biblical support for this position, but these have tended to commit hermeneutical homicide in the process:
Ex. 20:13, Thou shalt not kill. This one has no application to judicial execution; see here: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nokilling.html
John 8:3-11, Jesus does not endorse stoning of the adulterous woman. A good point, but invalid in context. Because the Romans held the rule of life and death and the right to implement CP, this was a challenge to Jesus to commit sedition. If he had said, "Go ahead," he would have been arrested. By itself this offers no injunction against CP, since it was not really an option; moreover, Jesus' reply indicates, "If we are to enforce it this time, some of you are next." The constraints of Roman power were acknowledged -- though CP itself was not thereby repudiated.
Matt. 5:38-9, Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. This is one of several passages cited of a type which encourage not resisting evil, not taking revenge, and so on. But they are all in the context of personal relationships and have nothing to do with the judicial functions of the state. Certainly persons should forgive others who commit criminal acts against them, but this does not oblige the state to "forgive". If it did, then we could not even imprison a person or so much as exact a fine for a parking ticket.
Gen. 1:26, we are made in the image and likeness of God. The reasoning here is that being made in the image of God, we possess a certain dignity and CP is a violation of that. But as I have shown in Chapter 1 of The Mormon Defenders, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0970906307/103-9895392-4924617?n=283155 -- the "image and likeness" has nothing to do with dignity; it has to do with our authority to represent God on earth and exercise the authority He has given us. Thus Gen. 9:6: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." The value of the victim as the representative of God on earth is just cause for penal execution. (Although, as a proverbial statement, it by no means requires execution.)
Gen. 4:15, God spared Cain and did not execute him. True enough: Yet what little indication we have here is that this was a crime of passion (Gen. 4:8). Such crimes do not earn the death penalty in the Bible, and this only suggests that they should not earn CP today either.
Well, how about other arguments? As this gets beyond our main question -- "What does the Bible say about CP?" -- we offer only a few observations and comments, based in part on my personal experience working for my state's prison system.
CP is unfairly enacted overwhelmingly on the poor and minorities. To whatever extent this may be true, it is an argument against applying CP unfairly, but hardly constitutes an argument against CP itself. I ask those who ply such an argument: if this were rectified, would you still have an argument against CP?
CP has the potential to kill someone who is actually innocent. To what extent this is true (and I may affirm that there are a few now in prison who probably should not have been convicted, at least not of the crimes they were!), it is again an argument only against unfair application, not CP itself. One might suggest that the answer is to increase the standards of evidence before CP can be imposed, not to simply delete CP from consideration.
CP generates unhealthy publicity. And once again: To whatever extent this may be true, it is an argument abusive media coverage of CP, but hardly constitutes an argument against CP itself.
CP is not a solution. Providing answers to root social causes of crime is the solution. One can hardly disagree that the root causes need to be addressed, but this is still not an argument against CP itself.
It would be more humane to keep someone in prison for life than to kill them. If one of the reasons for CP is to deter the person from committing the same crime again -- and even opponents acknowledge this as a valid point, while saying they would prefer life imprisonment -- this won't do much good unless you lock them in solitary, which in other contexts is admitted to be cruel and unusual punishment. Those on the "outside" tend to forget that while society as a whole may be safe, inside prison walls a murderer has hundreds of potential victims to choose from, and I will affirm that many such inmates would as soon kill or harm one of their own as blink. The majority of inmates have committed less serious crimes and are no happier about having a murderer in their neighborhood than you would be to have one next door. Life imprisonment does not solve the problem here, it merely moves it out of sight.
There is another point as well. As Glenn Miller has noted in another context, "the ancients disagree with moderns over what is 'morally acceptable euthanasia'. The ancients--from the evidence of suicides--clearly believed that a sudden death was preferable to an anticipated life of future suffering (e.g., slavery), an anticipated death by starvation/thirst/exposure, or of torture (e.g., capture by rival rulers)." In the same light, a suggestion that those now on death row should perhaps be put to work for the rest of their lives reflects our own conception that any life of such misery is better than none at all. The ancients would not have agreed. Which side of Patrick Henry's proclamation we prefer could decide how we stand on this question.
We may close out now with some points and observation. In another essay I noted that there were three purposes for response to any crime. Let's apply these contextually to CP:
Punishment/restitution. This can mean a fine, a return of property, or even a prison sentence, the latter being conceived as a way of "paying" society for the crime committed. As has been shown the Bible does apparently consider CP a viable form of payment.
Rehabilitation. I.e., taking steps to ensure that the person does not do the crime again. Many con-CP arguments allege that it is always possible to rehabilitate someone. My own experience disagrees -- I think such persons have never been inside a prison in the real world. But I would also affirm that such cases are rare, as well as, on the other hand, not really engaged under the present system of criminal justice.
Protection of the innocent. This is a hefty pro-CP point, even, as noted above, such that a life imprisonment would not be a resolution as it would put in danger those who are "relatively" and contextually innocent within the prison walls.
So it boils down to this: The Bible allows (but does not mandate) CP. The contextual grounding within which it was applied in the Bible is now different in modern society, and we must look at the issue accordingly. Space does not permit, obviously, a full analysis of modern society and a decision on what crimes, if any, ought to warrant CP -- hence we offer no definitive conclusions beyond that it is clear that we do have it as an option.
You don't understand. If they ever win the argument and get the death penalty banned, then they will go after "life sentences" as being cruel and unusual.
Oddly, this passage is found in the Torah, not in the "Christian New Testament" - why is it that Christians are blamed for this?
There is only one Word of G-d.
Man divided the Word of G-d into two books
early when the Evil one invaded the church through fleshly Pride and
began rabid anti-semitism and starting "replacement theology".
Y'shua testifies to the fact that there only one G-d
when He recites the Shema in Mark 12:29.
b'shem Y'shua
Wow, and here I thought it was Roe v. Wade that kept the killing culture alive...
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