Christian 'megapastor' blasts believers on Dec. 25 dispute (defends decision to close)

World Net Daily ^ | December 19, 2005

[A2J]

another great site explaining why we keep the Sunday Sabbath:

The Puritans?

Do you also agree with their views on predestination and that children who die without verbally accepting Jesus burn in hell?

[A2J]

If he has a service at midnight Sunday morning, fine. But, not before.

Tell me RW, do you count the number of steps that you take on the Sabbath? Do you do any type of "work" on the Sabbath, such as washing clothes, clearing dishes after your meal, taking the dog for a walk?

Those phylacteries must be heavy to carry around.

[no dems]

I'd be interested in knowing what the attendance records are of all those complaining. It's like these people who complain about prayer being taken out of schools when 90% of them don't pray with their kids at home.

Sounds to me like a bunch of self-righteous hippocrits.

[Free Baptist]

"You mean to imply that the Baptists knew what the New Testament Christianity is all about? My dear friend, there was no Bible to tote around for many centuries, and then it was in a languge only few understood, and even fewer could read, or afford for that matter."

Because Roman Catholics are trained from childhood to believe that truth is bound up in and is to be guarded by the Roman Catholic Church (I am assuming you are an adherent to Roman Catholicism), you are responding as if you think that Baptists and others believe that same thing about our church. But Baptists are not ones who believe that you must be a Baptist per se to be in the "right" church. Salvation is not in any Baptist church (Baptist churches, historically are autonomous congregations), or in any other church. Salvation is of the Lord, not of an earthly religious system. Baptists who believe the Scriptures (that qualification is essential) know what New Christianity is about. I gave Colossians 2:8-16 as a reference. I didn't give any quotation from a Baptist book.

There were Syrian and Byzantine Greek copies of the New Testament being copied and distributed all over (what is now) southeastern Europe from the time of the Apostles. And of course, the Old Testament could be found in any synagogue in any city. There was a Latin New Testament as early as 160 A.D. that was done in the same area. There were already copies of the Scriptures translated into other Eastern European dialects before 125 A.D.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that there was nothing until "the church" meaning the RCC put it together. This is because of the 50 copies of Alexandrian Greek manuscripts that Eusebius delivered by request of Constantine after 325 A.D. RCC folks are not made aware that there were already autonomous Christian congregations spreading northward and westward from Antioch of Syria, following Paul's and Barnabas' and others' teaching of the Scriptures from a time no later than 60 A.D. Common Christians were winning Pagans and Barbarians to Jesus Christ northward and westward, all the way to what is now Poland, and Christians were known to be as far northwest as the British Isles long before the Council of Nicea. As people along that route heard the Gospel and believed it, churches were formed of them along the way. Those for north and west before 325 A.D. had no connection to any movement that eventually morphed into what we know today as the Roman Catholic Church.

There was no Christian liturgical calendar in those churches. Again, Colossians 2:8-16. And we add Romans 14:4-9 and Galatians 4:10, 11 and 5:3,4. There is no biblical liturgical calendar, and Christians are at liberty with regard to these things, and we are to let no man judge us in these things.

You ask about Baptists: they adhere to individual soul liberty and the individual priesthood of the believer. We don't BIND people to calendars and holy days and other traditions of men. It's not at all what any particular Baptist church itself chooses to observe that matters. If we don't need it in our walk with Jesus Christ, we are free to walk out the door.

[Free Baptist]

"That Bible came from the Catholic Church."

That's what the Roman Catholic Church wants you and the world to believe, even though copies of the New Testament were proliferating all through the Byzantine region and northward and westward from the time of the Apostles without anything at all like (what we see as) the Roman Catholic Church having anything to do with it.

[Free Baptist]

"Sure it does, provided he is a widower, or she has entered a convent. Nary an early Christian had an exegesis of this passage other than that. "Husband of one wife" was a guaranteee of his continence in the minsitry. A man who could not control his human flesh and remarried, or who continued using marriage after ordination, could not be expected to maintain the discipline needed to be a Bishop.

"The Catholic Church doesn't forbid married men the ministry. It forbids ministers to make use of their marriage if they had one prior to ordination, faithful to the exhortation of the Lord."

No person, just taking a Bible from the night stand in a motel, and reading 1 Timothy ch. 3 with a heart to believe the Bible as God's Word, would ever, ever come up with the conditions and stipulations that you have placed on the phrase "husband of one wife." You are forcing Vatican law into the reading of the passage. And that even after your supreme leader has put out a pronouncement that there are parts of the Bible that are not true. So 1 Timothy ch. 3 really means nothing to the operation of the RCC anyway.

[xzins]

Jots and tittles relate to written documents....specifically, documents written in Hebrew.

I am not Hebrew. I am a gentile Christian. While Paul, a Jew, demonstrated that he was not bound by the law, it is even moreso for a gentile Christian.

Sabbath-keeping was part of the written law. Man was not made for the Sabbath; the Sabbath was made for man.

[ItsOurTimeNow]

A2J,

Did you miss my post which answered your earlier questions? Because you seem to keep repeating the same anti-church talking points without taking anything that you're being told into account. I'll re-post it for your convenience:

>>Chapter and verse, please. From the bible. You sound just like the Pharisees.<<

- Exodus 20:8 (on the sanctity of the Sabbath)
- Neh 13:15-22 (on the sanctity of the Sabbath)
- Is 58:13 (on keeping the Sabbath holy)
- 1 Cor 16:1-2 (On meeting in fellowship the first day of the week - the new Sabbath day as recognized by Christ's resurrection)
- Acts 20:7 (Gathering in prayer and communion on the first day of the week)
- Rev 1:10 (the Lord's Day being the first day of the week)
- Acts 2:42 (on the importance of meeting together)
- Heb 10:25 (In not forsaking the fellowship)

>>Christians worship every day because worship is not something you do but something that you live...just like eating or drinking which is not bound by certain days or times.<<

I understand that. You must have missed the part of my post wherein I said that a Christian is to worship the Lord privately, and/or as a family every day. However, the Lord's Day, Sunday, is set apart and sanctified for the gathering of the fellowship to worship God corporately.

>>Biblical/historical worship has little to nothing to do with song or being with others but how we live our lives as to whether we please Him or not.<<

Again, then Paul's letters to Timothy on church structure, offices, and order must be hereby null and void, since their not important, right?

To the contrary, public worship, teaching, and exhortation is commanded.

1 Tim 4:13; 2 Tim 4:2; Col 3:16; Eph 5:19

If you were to have your way, there would have been no need for any of the epistles on the subject of corporate worship or church government

If I may, I'd like to ask you a question:

Why do you seem so bent on ignoring and/or downgrading the importance of corporate worship? Did you have a bad church experience, and that is what has jaded you from fellowship with the saints?

The Bible is very clear on the importance of corporate worship, prayer, and teaching, as I have shown in the above verses. Where are your verses which state that corporate worship, prayer, and teaching are not important?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

as if we have the power to do anything anyway of our own

You don't believe that man is judged on his works?

Of course he is. But our power to do them is from God. Judgement on works is based on our cooperation with the grace of God. Those who do not do good are rejecting the Lord and His grace. Those who do good works are cooperating with God and His grace by living in faith.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

However, I don't believe that there is any work or amount of good works that can 'earn' you your salvation.

Good works do not earn, but do merit eternal life because they are the outward sign of the inward working of God's grace within us, regenerating us from the sinful old man to a new man in Christ.

Merit implies that by doing X, which God gives us the power to do, and to which He has attached the reward of eternal life, we will certainly gain the reward. First among all these works is that of conversion to the Lord Jesus from the Devil and sin. All other works are part of that conversion and flow from it, providing proof of its continuing activity within our soul.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Tell me, Hermann, which day do you keep the fourth commandment on?

Sunday and Holy Days, per command of the Catholic Church, given authority to bind and loose men in obligations by Christ.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Works done with faith and in cooperation with God's grace can be, literally, soul-changing.

Moreover, the grace within the changed soul is the cause of those works, and a man without those works does not have that grace. The works are not from us, but are done by us through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

A man with no good works clearly does not have the Holy Spirit.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Do you also believe in Santa Claus?

Yes, Saint Nicholas was an early Father of the Church, a Bishop at the Council of Nicea, and he really did give gifts in some stockings to help out some poor girls unawares.

No I don't believe in a jolly old man at the North Pole though.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

No person, just taking a Bible from the night stand in a motel, and reading 1 Timothy ch. 3 with a heart to believe the Bible as God's Word, would ever, ever come up with the conditions and stipulations that you have placed on the phrase "husband of one wife." You are forcing Vatican law into the reading of the passage. And that even after your supreme leader has put out a pronouncement that there are parts of the Bible that are not true. So 1 Timothy ch. 3 really means nothing to the operation of the RCC anyway.

Could you please find someone from prior to the year AD 1500, who taught that 1 Tim 3 meant that Church leaders could marry or continue to have children?

"He (Paul) was not speaking of a man who might persist in the desire to beget children; he was speaking about continence which they had to observe in future." (Pope St. Siricius, Decretal "Cum in Unum", AD 386)

Apparently, everyone who just took a Bible off the nightstand prior to AD 1517 did exactly what you say they would not.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Which day of the week is The Sabbath? The first or the seventh?

In the Catholic Church, the Sabbath is Saturday. In our Liturgical Books, it is clearly called "Sabbato" in Latin - "Sabbath".

The obligations of the 4th Commandment, however, are transferred from the Sabbath, and the Jewish feasts ordained by God through Moses and by the High Priest (i.e. Hannukah), to the Lord's Day, and Christian feasts created by the Church by the Pope (i.e. Christmas, Ascension, All Saints, etc.).

[P-Marlowe]

The obligations of the 4th Commandment, however, are transferred from the Sabbath, and the Jewish feasts ordained by God through Moses and by the High Priest (i.e. Hannukah), to the Lord's Day, and Christian feasts created by the Church by the Pope (i.e. Christmas, Ascension, All Saints, etc.).

By what scriptural authority did the Pope do that?

[Buggman]

The authority to bind and loose does not include the authority to change Scripture (cf. Deu. 4:2, Mat. 5:17-19 & 15:3, John 10:35). The day of the Sabbath was literally written in stone by God Himself as being the seventh day of the week, and He did not change it in the person of Jesus Christ.

Ergo, Hermann, before you boast, "I can handle it on keeping holy the Lord's Day," and throw stones at others perhaps you should consider that you yourself, and indeed your entire denomination, is not keeping the Sabbath on the day that the Lord Himself set aside as holy. Nor, for that matter, are you keeping any of God's Appointed Times at their appointed times.

Show some grace.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

By what scriptural authority did the Pope do that?

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. (St. Matthew 16.18-19)

Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. (St. Matthew 18.18)

Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20.28)

[rwfromkansas]

They are correct on predestination. Not on babies, if that is what they actually believed.

[rwfromkansas]

Certainly true.

However, there is still an appointed day set apart for that.

It does not mean we aren't to live every moment though worshipping God.