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They call themselves libertarians; I think they're antisocial bastards
Guardian ^ | 12/20/05 | George Monbiot

Posted on 12/19/2005 8:30:57 PM PST by Pikamax

The road-rage lobby couldn't have been more wrong. Organisations such as the Association of British Drivers or Safe Speed - the boy racers' club masquerading as a road-safety campaign - have spent years claiming that speeding doesn't cause accidents. Safe Speed, with the help of some of the most convoluted arguments I've ever read, even seeks to prove that speed cameras "make our roads more dangerous". Other groups, such as Motorists Against Detection (officially known as Mad), have been toppling, burning and blowing up the hated cameras. These and about a thousand such campaigns maintain that speed limits, speed traps and the government's "war on the motorist" are shakedown operations whose sole purpose is to extract as much money as possible from the poor oppressed driver.

Well last week the Department for Transport published the results of the study it had commissioned into the efficacy of its speed cameras. It found that the number of drivers speeding down the roads where fixed cameras had been installed fell by 70%, and the number exceeding the speed limit by more than 15mph dropped by 91%. As a result, 42% fewer people were killed or seriously injured in those places than were killed or injured on the same stretches before the cameras were erected. The number of deaths fell by more than 100 a year. The people blowing up speed cameras have blood on their hands.

But this is not, or not really, an article about speed, or cameras, or even cars. It is about the rise of the antisocial bastards who believe they should be allowed to do what they want, whenever they want, regardless of the consequences.

(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: liberals; liberaltarians; libertarians
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1 posted on 12/19/2005 8:30:58 PM PST by Pikamax
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To: Pikamax

Monbiot is pretty much of an antisocial bastard himself.


2 posted on 12/19/2005 8:33:39 PM PST by Petronski (I love Cyborg!)
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To: antonius

Just thought you'd like to know who you've climbed into bed with....


3 posted on 12/19/2005 8:33:42 PM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
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To: Pikamax

Yeah, we should all just roll over and take it. Big government knows best. If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear. And by the way, your papers, please. Merry olde England, and, more recently, America.


4 posted on 12/19/2005 8:33:43 PM PST by mysterio
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To: Pikamax

Good old george moonbat.


5 posted on 12/19/2005 8:36:09 PM PST by axes_of_weezles
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To: mysterio

Unfortunately, that sounds like a lot on FR lately.


6 posted on 12/19/2005 8:37:01 PM PST by darkangel82
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To: darkangel82

It won't swing the other way unless the demorats retake a branch or two of government or until the pubs apply the "patriot" act to include some stupid firearms registration backdoor package. Then we'll see support for big government policies melt away.


7 posted on 12/19/2005 8:40:22 PM PST by mysterio
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To: Pikamax

"Libertarians" are to cowrdly to admit the TRUTH. They are really Socialists that lack the intellectual honesty (and/or nuts) to admit it.

"Libertarian" sounds so much more honorable and upright than "Socialist", thought that idea is just a myth.


8 posted on 12/19/2005 8:44:58 PM PST by Howie66 ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people.")
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To: Howie66
You may accuse some of not living up to the principle of libertarianism, but to equate it with socialism is pathetic ignorance.

Maybe you'd like to quote the written statements of a respected libertarian, and share with us why you think it equates with socialism.

Otherwise, we're just left to wonder what disorder leaves you so uncomfortable with liberty.
9 posted on 12/19/2005 8:48:07 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: Beelzebubba

"Maybe you'd like to quote the written statements of a respected libertarian, and share with us why you think it equates with socialism."

Socialists detest Libertarians worst of all, in my experience. They're 180º out of phase with one another.


10 posted on 12/19/2005 8:53:08 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: Beelzebubba

Typical response.

Having many up close and personal discussions with so-called "libertarians", I can only conclude that these people are Socialist in their "feelings", just lacking in the intellectual honesty to admit that they are "Socialists", first.

If you have a problem with that, it's your problem. Surely, not mine.


11 posted on 12/19/2005 8:53:50 PM PST by Howie66 ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people.")
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To: Pikamax
Well last week the Department for Transport published the results of the study it had commissioned into the efficacy of its speed cameras.

They do a study to see whether their cash cow has any positive effect on safety. I wonder how that was going to turn out.

I know some Brits, and they were complaining how cameras were installed on open, wide roads with low accident rates and too-low speed limits.

12 posted on 12/19/2005 8:55:05 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: Howie66

"I can only conclude that these people are Socialist in their "feelings", just lacking in the intellectual honesty to admit that they are "Socialists", first."

Socialists love the use of government force. Libertarians are repelled by it.


13 posted on 12/19/2005 8:57:03 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: Howie66
No actually it's your problem. You haven't the foggiest notion of what the principles of libertarianism are.

Your calling libertarians socialists makes about as much sense as Michael Moore calling Republicans 'fascists'. All it does is show that you don't know any more about political philosophy than he does.

L

14 posted on 12/19/2005 8:59:14 PM PST by Lurker (And everyday the paperboy brings more...)
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To: RegulatorCountry
Socialists love the use of government force. Libertarians are repelled by it.

And people outside of these two whackjob extremes recognize that there is sometimes a place for it.

15 posted on 12/19/2005 8:59:57 PM PST by r9etb
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To: Howie66
They are really Socialists that lack the intellectual honesty (and/or nuts) to admit it.

A socialist is someone who believes that the community at large should control the means of production. That is not what libertarianism is about.

Idiot.

16 posted on 12/19/2005 9:02:53 PM PST by Dave Olson
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To: Pikamax

I'm pretty much of a libertarian, and I do consider myself also to be pretty much of an antisocial bastard about half the time. OTOH, what else can you be when damn near everyone else is dying to be a socialist?


17 posted on 12/19/2005 9:08:37 PM PST by Sam Cree (absolute reality) - "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein)
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To: Beelzebubba
You may accuse some of not living up to the principle of libertarianism, but to equate it with socialism is pathetic ignorance.

Marxists and libertarians share a similar conceit in that purists in both camps are convinced that government is evil and unnecessary.

The greatest difference is, marxists had almost a full century to test their foolishness to abject failure, and libertarians are still looking for the opportunity.

Conservative Republicans, on the other hand, have a wiser, more healthy and realistic understanding of the limited strengths and pervasive limitations of government.

It is liberals and progressives who believe government is the source of all rights and the healer of all ills. Not quite as foolish as unbridled libertarianism or pure marxism, but quite foolish enough.

18 posted on 12/19/2005 9:09:16 PM PST by JCEccles
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To: r9etb

"And people outside of these two whackjob extremes recognize that there is sometimes a place for it."

I suspect my "sometimes" are far less frequent than yours. I'm something of a "small l" libertarian. If they weren't such naive ideologues regarding immigration and defense, I'd consider becoming Libertarian. Also, abortion, to me, is disgusting and wrong. Defunding it and allowing it to devolve back to the states where it belongs is the good answer at present. Libertarians would disagree with me, on all three, immigration, defense and abortion.

So, I vote almost entirely Republican, but never Democrat, out of necessity. Most of the Libertarian candidates thus far are loons, sad to say. Now, if Ron Paul, another libertarian (R), were to agree to run for president again ...


19 posted on 12/19/2005 9:11:46 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: Howie66
Having many up close and personal discussions with so-called "libertarians", I can only conclude that these people are Socialist in their "feelings"


20 posted on 12/19/2005 9:16:39 PM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
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To: Howie66
As a recovering Libertarian, I'll agree with your detractors and say that you don't have the foggiest idea as to what Libertarianism is.

To call a Libertarian a socialist is like claiming that it is too sunny at midnight. Or why it is so dry under water. Completely incongruent concepts, all three.

The important tenant (to me) of Libertarianism is the sovereignty of self; this concept in itself is completely incompatible with socialism.

A Libertarian is a Republican who excuses himself from the social war. In other words, fiscal conservative, social liberal and / or agnostic.

Hope that clears it up a bit for you.

APf
21 posted on 12/19/2005 9:21:16 PM PST by APFel (Loose ships sink lips.)
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Bring back tpaine!!!!!
22 posted on 12/19/2005 9:22:56 PM PST by RabidBartender
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To: Howie66

Would you accept PayPal funds to help you buy a clue?

NAZIs are Socialists; libertarians aren't.


23 posted on 12/19/2005 9:27:53 PM PST by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excess legislation.)
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To: Howie66
"They are really Socialists that lack the intellectual honesty (and/or nuts) to admit it."

That statement is just so incorrect I'm not even going to bother responding to it ROFL! Do some reading man.

24 posted on 12/19/2005 9:28:18 PM PST by KoRn (Merry Christmas!!)
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To: Howie66

You have no clue what the actual Libertarian platform is with a statement like that.

I was kind of an activist with the Libertarian Party for two years when I was absolutely disgusted with the entire Republican Party; I left for a few reasons, but I still believe that their general platform is the best of any of the national parties.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt... Perhaps the 'sample' of Libertarian Party members you know personally ARE socialists, who themselves have no clue what the actual platform of the LP is... They are only there because of the 'cheap, legalized recreational drugs for everyone' attitude that is so prevalent in the LP.....
(One of the main reasons I went back to the GOP by the way.)

But saying the Libertarian Party in general is socialistic is about like saying that Ayn Rand was a socialist.


25 posted on 12/19/2005 9:28:23 PM PST by LegendHasIt
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To: Pikamax

Most Libertarians are anarchists, whether they admit it or not..they would love to do away with ALL laws, everywhere.


26 posted on 12/19/2005 9:29:30 PM PST by Windsong (Jesus Saves, but Buddha makes incremental backups)
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To: Howie66; Windsong
Having many up close and personal discussions with so-called "libertarians", I can only conclude that these people are Socialist...
Most Libertarians are anarchists....

Howie, meet Windsong. Windsong, meet Howie. Have fun.

27 posted on 12/19/2005 9:32:23 PM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
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To: JCEccles
Marxists and libertarians share a similar conceit in that purists in both camps are convinced that government is evil and unnecessary.

Wrong. Just plain simply wrong.

Conservative Republicans, on the other hand, have a wiser, more healthy and realistic understanding of the limited strengths and pervasive limitations of government.

Sounds like you've got the conceits that you accuse others of having. And a buttload of hypocracy to go with it.

28 posted on 12/19/2005 9:32:37 PM PST by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excess legislation.)
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To: Howie66
"Libertarians" are to cowrdly to admit the TRUTH. They are really Socialists that lack the intellectual honesty (and/or nuts) to admit it.

"Republicans" are too cowardly to admit that they're really greedy, power-mad, control-freak Big Stupid Government political hacks who don't hesitate to lie about all these aspects of their personalities in order to get elected to pursue their government-growth, deficit-enhancing agenda. They also stomp the First Amendment and choke kittens.



The difference between our two statements? I'm right.

29 posted on 12/19/2005 9:33:05 PM PST by Hank Rearden (Never allow anyone who could only get a government job attempt to tell you how to run your life.)
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To: Windsong
Wrong.

They are for personal responsibility and limited Federal government, not anarchy. There IS a difference.

Maybe it is just too subtle a difference for some people to discern, but it is a real difference

30 posted on 12/19/2005 9:33:47 PM PST by LegendHasIt
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To: Windsong

Folks, here's another one Stuck on Stupid.


31 posted on 12/19/2005 9:34:45 PM PST by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excess legislation.)
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To: Howie66
Good evening.
I'm a libertarian and I'm not intellectually dishonest. I am pretty much fearless, so I guess I may be slightly nuts.

You don't know what being a libertarian means, yet you post ignorant crap about us. That makes you look mean spirited or stupid. I don't know you, so I won't make a judgment one way or another.

Michael Frazier
32 posted on 12/19/2005 9:40:26 PM PST by brazzaville (no surrender no retreat, well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: Pikamax
...As a result, 42% fewer people were killed or seriously injured in those places than were killed or injured on the same stretches before the cameras were erected...

I'm sure comparable statistics could be manufactured to prove the efficacy of gun bans, too.

33 posted on 12/19/2005 9:43:34 PM PST by Sloth (Freedom of speech doesn't mean the rest of us have to shut up.)
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To: Petronski

I like this , this seems to be a revolt against the police state mentality. I like the idea of foam in the radar box. Wish it would take hold here.
DC has all it speed radar traps on the commuter routes. Not where accidents and people get hit. No it is all the money making routes.
Could understand to reduce speeders in neighborhoods, would not like it, but a rational reason. But all on the commutter routes to make as much money as possible.


34 posted on 12/19/2005 9:48:07 PM PST by Rhiannon
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To: JCEccles
Marxists and libertarians share a similar conceit in that purists in both camps are convinced that government is evil and unnecessary. The greatest difference is, marxists had almost a full century to test their foolishness to abject failure...

Congratulations -- you've somehow surpassed the idiocy threshhold already established on this thread by Howie66... no small accomplishment.

35 posted on 12/19/2005 9:54:39 PM PST by Sloth (Freedom of speech doesn't mean the rest of us have to shut up.)
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I don't like speed cameras. I don't like red light cameras. I don't like the devices that have been proposed in GB that tax you based on what roads you are on and when. Essentially I don't like the nanny state, and I don't want to live in a society where the government knows your movements and cameras are everywhere.


36 posted on 12/19/2005 9:57:35 PM PST by SmoothTalker
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To: Howie66

"
Having many up close and personal discussions with so-called "libertarians", I can only conclude that these people are Socialist in their "feelings", just lacking in the intellectual honesty to admit that they are "Socialists", first."

Thats one of the strangest comments i've ever seen. A libertarian believes in a small, weak, and handsoff government. A socialist wants a large, and very powerful goverment that has control over a lot of aspects of our eveyday lives.


37 posted on 12/19/2005 9:59:21 PM PST by SmoothTalker
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To: Howie66

This is frustrating. Any conservative who does not understand libertarianism, is someone who probably hasn't read a book not connected to the Left Behind series. No one who understands the intellectual foundations of capitalism and the market economy, would foolishly equate libertarianism with socialism. Anyone who would do such a thing, hasn't read Human Action by Von Mises, Road to Serfdom by Hayek, Economics in One Lesson by Hazlitt, The Economic Way of Thinking by Heyne, anything by Thomas Sowell or Milton Friedman or Lord Acton, or any other book from the litany of pro-libertarian works that should be required reading for everyone across the political spectrum, yet alone those who claim to be a defender of the free market system.

Because if you are well versed in the intellectual side of the Conservative movement, you wouldn't be calling Libertarians--such as Thomas Sowell, Milton Friedman, and Friedrich Hayek--Socialists. That's just ignorance, and representative of the disgusting anti-intellectualism trend in the Conservative movement. It's pretty simple: If you don't understand the arguments from the Austrian school and Monetarist school, you don't understand Conservativism. If you do understand the Austrian and Monetarist schools, you know that Libertarianism isn't Socialism, and that Conservativism and Libertarianism share the same intellectual roots.

I'm not a Libertarian, and I'm not a pure laissez faire economist. I'm more in line with Hayek, who believed that not only was Government necessary to protect the market system (Rule of Law), but that the Government could actually make a positive contribution to the market process in other ways. I have my qualms with the Libertarian party, many many qualms. But just because you disagree with an ideology, doesn't make it wise to hurl any insult at it, because when you do, you open yourself to harsh criticism from those who know more about what you're talking about than you do.


38 posted on 12/19/2005 10:17:17 PM PST by 0siris
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To: Howie66
Having many up close and personal discussions with so-called "libertarians", I can only conclude that these people are Socialist in their "feelings", just lacking in the intellectual honesty to admit that they are "Socialists", first.

You should cut back on making conclusions. Just a suggestion...JFK

39 posted on 12/19/2005 10:23:51 PM PST by BADROTOFINGER (Life sucks. Get a helmet.)
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To: Pikamax

Libertarians are right on so many things.


40 posted on 12/19/2005 10:51:55 PM PST by GeronL (1678 computer infections and still Freeping!!!)
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To: Howie66

How are people who don't think government should even own a road 'socialist'?


41 posted on 12/19/2005 10:53:13 PM PST by GeronL (1678 computer infections and still Freeping!!!)
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To: Pikamax
"...Mad, have been toppling, burning and blowing up the hated cameras."

Good for them!

I didn't know there was a Brit left with that much spine!

42 posted on 12/19/2005 10:55:54 PM PST by Redbob
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To: Hank Rearden
The difference between our two statements? I'm right.

LOL, bump. Although you may be misinformed about the choking kittens bit unless they've added that of late

43 posted on 12/19/2005 10:56:42 PM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: Pikamax
the extreme libertarianism now beginning to take hold here...

Yes! There's hope for poor old England after all. May Monbiot get his frilly pink panties in ever-greater twists over more British Libertarian battle tactics.

44 posted on 12/19/2005 11:04:14 PM PST by BlazingArizona
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To: Howie66
"Libertarians" are to cowrdly to admit the TRUTH. They are really Socialists that lack the intellectual honesty (and/or nuts) to admit it.

Let me guess: you're one of those "Republicans" who worships HOAs, the DEA, the pharma monopoly and the RIAA. You used to believe in balanced budgets once, but over the years have forgotten what the term means.

There's still time. Join us. Come over to the dark side...

45 posted on 12/19/2005 11:08:23 PM PST by BlazingArizona
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To: billbears
LOL, bump. Although you may be misinformed about the choking kittens bit unless they've added that of late

It's in fine print of the latest version of the Party Platform, which Jack Abramoff sold them.

46 posted on 12/19/2005 11:48:40 PM PST by Hank Rearden (Never allow anyone who could only get a government job attempt to tell you how to run your life.)
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To: Howie66
"Libertarian" sounds so much more honorable and upright than "Socialist", thought that idea is just a myth.

And yet you are the one allying yourself with the socialist Moonbat.

47 posted on 12/20/2005 4:08:27 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (so natural to mankind is intolerance in whatever they really care about - J S Mill)
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To: Pikamax
As a result, 42% fewer people were killed or seriously injured in those places than were killed or injured on the same stretches before the cameras were erected.

It seems that Freepers are interested in talking about the politics of a situation than the results in many cases that is important.

The biggest killer in Britain is speeding cars.

I don't know a single family mine included that hasn't had a family member killed by some selfish bstard speeding and sometimes drinking, what is even worse is you find out it wasn't the first time.

I am all for freedom and personal liberty but when we refuse to control ourself or modify are own behavior and it costs other peoples life.

Then can we really whine when the government steps in.

These cameras are being destroyed by individuals who believe they have the right to race down a road.

Before anyone flames me just imagine it is your family in the car that one of these idiots will crash into.

BTW my mate survived Iraq knocked of his push bike by some idiot late for his dinner.

48 posted on 12/20/2005 4:24:22 AM PST by tonycavanagh
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To: Howie66
Screw the liberaltarians. Their only purpose here on Free Republic is to bash the religious folks, promote drug abuse and sex perverts, cause trouble for conservatives and help the Democrats...

They are cultural Marxists... you hit the nail right on...

49 posted on 12/20/2005 4:25:25 AM PST by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: Redbob
re :Good for them!.

The people responsible for removing the cameras are those who want to race down that stretch of road for fun.

But there is always one stupid family on a day out who get in the way of these drivers right to exercise there personal freedom get killed and ruin the fun

50 posted on 12/20/2005 4:27:30 AM PST by tonycavanagh
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