Bush's Spying: Scandalous, or Echo of Clinton-Era "Echelon"?

TimesWatch ^

[mnehring]

I'm going to keep yelling it from the rooftops. The key point all these reports neglect is that these taps were on calls and e-mails either originating or terminating internationally. This is not domestic spying.

[funkywbr]

No the key point is that President Bush actually has probable cause to do this, what was Cliton's reason?

Filtering out internet porn sites to see who was into giving BJs on the cheap?

[ClancyJ]

Just another assault by the enemies of America.

We have enemies here and they are abetted by the New York Times and the Democrats.

I am sick of it.

Time for a major boycott of any New York Times input whatsoever.

[badbass]

That's what I thought when I heard all of the hoopla over this. Didn't Clinton do it daily? I remember Echelon and something called Carnivore as well. I've always just assumed we were long past this stage of Big Brother, living with the legacy of Clinton. I don't have any problem with surveilling non-citizens at all. I consider this somewhat of an improvement, since the callers had direct links to Al Quaeda.

[ClancyJ]

This is an effort to stop the very effective protection of the U.S.

Notice we have had NO attacks since 9/11 here. Well the Times, the media and the democrats will see to it that there are attacks here. We are seeing that action in progress.

And, note - it will be the responsibility of the media, the Times and the Democrats. Do you really want a democrat protecting your country? Notice how they do it.
By abetting all enemies in and out of this country.

[El Gato]

I'm going to keep yelling it from the rooftops. The key point all these reports neglect is that these taps were on calls and e-mails either originating or terminating internationally. This is not domestic spying.

Exactly. And this morning, I finally figured out why they could not go to the Courts for regular wiretap warrants. The targets of the surveillance were identified by their association with known or suspected foreign terrorists. Those associations would in most cases have come from NSA monitoring of the communications of these foreign overseas terrorists. That information would not be releasable to a court, and of course there might also be questions of timeliness.

Additionally, and possibly more importantly, the terrorists overseas would suspect that the US was monitoring their calls, and thus would change numbers frequently to throw the monitors off. Those in the US would be less paranoid, and thus monitoring their calls would reveal the changed numbers of the overseas end of the line. It would not in many cases be necessary to monitor what was said on those calls monitored by the US number, only the "who was called" information would be needed, and then those numbers could be monitored for content. However I'd monitor the content of the calls to and from the US numbers as well.

It would be interesting to know how many of those monitored were US citizens, how many were legal immigrants, and how many were illegals, including people who had overstayed legitimate visas as well as those with falsified papers.

[april15Bendovr]

By the way these papers have been selling I would say there already has been a boycott and major layoffs of their employees.

[april15Bendovr]

Could you imagine approaching the 9th circus court for wire taps or other Lefty judges like them?

[sheltonmac]

I'm going to keep yelling it from the rooftops. The key point all these reports neglect is that these taps were on calls and e-mails either originating or terminating internationally. This is not domestic spying.

If the president is not spying domestically, then where are the complaints that he isn't doing enough to keep the country safe? If we are so concerned with national security, shouldn't the president's reach be extended to include domestic spying? After all, there may be terrorists here already. Why not tap every phone in the U.S. and be done with it?

[sheltonmac]

It would be interesting to know how many of those monitored were US citizens, how many were legal immigrants, and how many were illegals, including people who had overstayed legitimate visas as well as those with falsified papers.

What exactly would that tell us? I suspect that if we knew that, then everyone here would be calling for the head of the person who "leaked" the information.

[april15Bendovr]

Ever wonder if the liberals in the MSM don't like the patriot act due to actually wanting to give aid and comfort to our enemy?

Its like the argument they used to have when President Clinton gave nuclear satellite guidance technology to the Chinese. "We shouldn't be so powerful?"

[ClancyJ]

Nothing will satisfy me other than complete destruction.

I have had it with the ignorant media enemies of America.

If I have to listen one more time as they try and interpret the President's remarks for us as they snicker about the importance of poll numbers all the time totally having no knowledge of history, the facts of war and the responsibility they have to join in the efforts to protect us, I will destroy my tv.

I am ready to destroy the freedom of the press. Why? Because the press seeks to destroy my freedom, my country, my president. This is war.

[mitchbert]

Notice we have had NO attacks since 9/11 here.

An important point, and in fact we hear repeatedly that some planned attacks were foiled by the intelligence gathered.

Perhaps there's proper reasons why we haven't been told specifics, but I can't help thinking President Bush could put this whole matter to bed full stop by actually explaining what plots were stopped and when. There have been many small victories in the WOT that have happened all over the world that haven't seen the light of day. I realize many can't be discussed without compromising security assets, but I have to think some could be brought forward. It would mute the Dems attacks considerably IMO.

[airforceF4]

Presidential Executive Orders have a long history. We have affirmative action, in part, due to an EO. The NSA and DIA have had this capability for decades--not a new story. How the heck do you suppose information is gathered--in a coffee house? On a street corner?
Just quit blaming Clinton--every POTUS since JFK has used this. Bush has got to understand that he has to be very direct and honest with the citizens of the USA. Spin, blame and name calling is a waste of time. Tell us a straight story--we're tougher than you seem to know, Mr. President.

[ClancyJ]

No, I do not agree. Let President Bush run the war and reveal what he wants to reveal.

The problem is that we have enemies in our government, in our media. The president cannot say that but you know full well he understands that.

By getting him to continually let the help him make decisions, get him to reveal more and more, plays into their gameplan of destroying this country and our safety.

Always remember - We Have Enemies in this Government and in the Media and they seek to destroy this country.

[Rapscallion]

Only fools believe the war is over. There are still two counties (North Korea and Iran)with nuke programs aimed at the US and our allies.There are three countries working on bio-attack materials against the US. Chemical warfare stores still exist in Iran, North Korea and Syria. Terrorist organizations to carry out evil against us are too numerous to name: Hezbollah, Hammas, Islamic Brotherhood, if not al Qaeda, are alive and operational.

MESSAGE TO DEMOCRATS: If there is another attack "democrat" will be a term of hatred and scorn, disloyalty and self-destruction. Kennedy, Reid, Pelosi, Kerry, Boxer, Levin, Rangel et al., will be hunted as terrorist sympathizers worthy of listing beside Benedict Arnold, John Walker, and Albert Ames.

[eastforker]

It has been rumored in the past that someone from the David Koresh compound had the "key" to Echelon. That is why it had to be destroyed.

[mitchbert]

No, I do not agree. Let President Bush run the war and reveal what he wants to reveal.

I wasn't clear...I don't feel anyone other than the President should have the discretion to release the info. I just feel that if HE did it on a few points where he felt he could it would go a long way to shutting down the naysayers.

[ClancyJ]

Oh, ok I agree. But, it does not matter with the naysayers - they will just move on to another facet of the president's efforts.

Being President in this country is extremely hard - I do not blame the president from ignoring the media. I just can't understand how he can even be passably polite to them as they seek to undermine him every step of the way.

Their whole viewpoint of superiority over what is revealed to the American public is a farce. They are in fact totally ignorant of history and have been educated by liberals in our school systems to be nice little socialists. So, therefore, they are less educated than the older in our society and have been thoroughly indoctrinated by their educators and their bosses to the socialistic, worldrule agenda.

It is up to middle America to protect this country. We cannot depend on the liberal states to do it.