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To: twigs

That blind obedience missive is carried a tad far. Jesus was very uppity with unjust power - especially when it was used to demean his Father's house. Remember the temple?

This holy man is just upturning some tables in the Military's temple where praying to Jesus is banned in his own house of worship.

Do you think Jesus would want Christians to obey Hitler's order to kill Jews? I don't think so.


55 posted on 12/21/2005 8:45:41 AM PST by Galveston Grl (Getting angry and abandoning power to the Democrats is not a choice.)
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To: Galveston Grl
But he isn't being asked to kill Jews, is he? I think that God wants to transform the entire military, and that's done by getting the rules changed. I agree with you that it's a fine line and yes, there are times we are called upon to obey God at great price. I think it's a hard call.

I think of Daniel who must have played by the rules of a pagan culture to be as valued as he was. But he didn't actually disobey the rules that I can remember until the king was tricked into signing an irrevokable law that anyone who petitioned anyone other than the king would be thrown to the lions. Daniel, a faithful man of prayer, continued to pray privately, and was caught doing so. The distraught king who had signed the legislation pleaded with Daniel to pray for protection and he, the pagan king, actually prayed himself for Daniel. After their prayers were answered, Daniel's enemies and their families were themselves fed to the beasts. And the kings proclaimed that Daniel's God was the living God indeed with an eternal dominion.

The Bible tells wonderful stories and gives guidelines for our behavior, but no blueprint. The book of I Peter 2 says that we are to submit to the king (a concept that would mean state authority). It says other interesting things as well: Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority... For such is the will of God... do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.

The concept of submission is a very important, and often overlooked, one in the Bible, because we are to submit ourselves to God. We carry that out on a daily basis by being submissive to others.

But that does not answer what to do when we are ordered to disobey. It's a tough question. Yes, Jesus overturned the moneychanger's tables, but I'm not Jesus and I'm reluctant to disobey authority unless I'm absolutely sure that it's the right thing to do. And life isn't always that black and white.

65 posted on 12/21/2005 9:33:02 AM PST by twigs
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To: Galveston Grl

Folk are not bound to have their religious conscience violated by the State.

Disobedience to tyrants is obedience to God.

The Hebrew midwives preserved the life of Moses as over against the Pharaoh's orders.

Peter and John disregarded the civil authority of the Sanhedrin and continued to preach the message of Jesus.

The rub in this instance is that the chaplains are drawing their salary and support from the State be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc. At that point they must decide, if they believe praying in the name of Allah or Jesus is a matter of conscience, whether they will bow the knee to the King or stand by their convictions even if it entails punitive sanction from the State, ala Daniel's friends in Daniel 3.


78 posted on 12/21/2005 9:46:17 AM PST by PresbyRev
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