Posted on 12/23/2005 5:44:48 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest
This question has never been answered to me in a way that even remotely approaches something making sense.
Why ask the opinions of men? Why not read and believe Jesus' words instead of men's and decide for yourself?
My point is that these are creations of man and stories that were passed on through an oral tradition for years before they were put to writing.
Do you even remotely consider the chance that these stories were at all manipulated or altered for the audience of the today for which they were written?
>So what about people who lived ten thousand years ago????? <
My post # 80 was in response to this not the statement about satan.Sorry to fast on the copy.
If they did not have any religions organized by human beings what of them? Was their world diverging and falling as you say?
Mankind has been on this planet for at least tens of thousands of years, despite the idiocy of some who deny any science whatsoever.
Organized religion as we know it today has been around for only but a blip on the radar screen. Chances are, we will be around for many many more years in our present form.
Pograms, expulsions, Inquisitions; all European fun and games where "the cross" played a prominent role in the activities. And while the Holocaust didnt have all that much to do with it, you can't blame some for thinking it's the natural denouement to the whole thing, can you?
Do you mean could they be saved? Yes, they could be, by following truth and goodness to the best of their abilities and knowledge. Their salvation would come by Christ's redemptive act, regardless of their ignorance of Him.
Was their world diverging and falling as you say?
Their ignorance of God would be a result of their fallen intellects and wills, which were damaged as a result of the Fall.
Mankind has been on this planet for at least tens of thousands of years,...
Apparently.
Organized religion as we know it today has been around for only but a blip on the radar screen.
Does that have any bearing on its truth or falsity?
Right. He's GOD. Why do we put such restraints on him? sigh.......
I'm not surprised that the rabbi was so straightforward about this issue. Interfaith marriages are especially bad for the Jewish community. There was an article on FR awhile back that analyzed the stats on marriages between Jews and Gentiles. Very few of the children of these marriages became practicing Jews as adults. It was something like less than 10% were practicing. Most of the children became non-religious.
Many children of interfaith marriages end up with no religion at all. Sometimes the interfaith marriage is the cause - the child is exposed to two contradictory religions and concludes that religion in general is just a pointless shame.
Other times the interfaith marriage is a result of a bigger problem. Namely parents who do not take their religion seriously. In my experience, if a kid's parents, whether they are Jewish, Catholic, or Protestant don't take their religion seriously, the kid will not be religious at all by the time he or she is an adult. If parents see religion as meaning we go to church or temple a few times a year, we put up nice decorations in December, or we just *are* a religion because our ancestors were and this should have no bearing on our behavior and beliefs, then children will rarely carry this weak faith into adulthood.
Adults who take their faith seriously do a better job of passing their faith on to their kids. But adults like this usually don't marry outside the faith. Usually they insist that their spouse be of the same faith. It's not that they hate other faiths or won't socialize with people of other faiths. But when it comes to the person you spend your life with and raise a family with, faith is usually a non-negotiable.
Meanwhile people who are nominal Catholics, Protestants, and Jews seem to be more likely to marry outside their faith. It doesn't bother them because they don't see religion as being terribly important. So we celebrate different holidays in December, so what? If religion is nothing but different customs then it shouldn't be so hard to combine and compromise. This kind of approach to religion is a sure-fire way to produce children who end up with no religion.
But this isn't an interfaith marriage problem alone. I can think of some nominal Catholics who have married nominal Jews and end up with children who are neither Catholic nor Jewish. But considering the attitudes towards religion that some of these Catholics already had, I can't imagine that if they had married another Catholic who was just as nominal, the children would have turned out any less secular.
People need to learn their faith, live their faith, and love their faith if they want to pass it on to their kids. Often people see an interfaith marriage as an obstacle to doing this. But if one doesn't have the right attitude towards religion, marrying someone of the same religious background will not do much to stop one's children from becoming secular.
People should stay within their respective faiths. There are always people of the same faith to love and marry.
Being good or moral doesn't meet the requirement though. The following passage applies:
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If you like to read C.S. Lewis' short book 'Mere Christianity'is worth reading and deals with reasons for belief vs. excuses for unbelief.
Inspired by God.
...and stories that were passed on through an oral tradition for years before they were put to writing.
True.
Do you even remotely consider the chance that these stories were at all manipulated or altered for the audience of the today for which they were written?
I've considered it, but rejected it, because the scribes were fastidious about copying Scripture. Proof of this is the fact that generations of scribes left in the Torah a very important passage which seems to contradict monotheism.
Genesis 1:26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,
Great post! You put it far more eloquently than I ever could.
This reminds me of a funny story from my youth. A buddies dad was both the owner of the only local car dealership in the small midwestern town (Ford) and the head of deacons at the local church. My friend remarked "the elders decided that my dad had screwed so many people out of so much money all week that by the time Sunday came around he'd be too tired to steal more, so have him count it". It was said with a smile, and obviously he was well respected.
where do they go
Hell.
and are they "saved"?????
No.
Was that simple enough to understand?
Rev 20-11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20-12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20-13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20-14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20-15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
These verses tell me that there is a judgement of all, living AND dead, after Christ comes again.
Now I will admit, I could be wrong about Satan getting a second chance. Like I said, I'm not a theologian.
That has to be the most idiotic post on this entire thread. How do you know that? Do you talk to the dead?
For the second chance I go to Revelation
Rev 11-18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 20-11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20-12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20-13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20-14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20-15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
These verses tell me that there is a judgement of all, living AND dead, after Christ comes again.
Now I will admit, I could be wrong about Satan getting a second chance. Like I said, I'm not a theologian.
It's worse than that. Almost no grandchildren of intermarried Jews are still Jews. The watered-down some of everything Chrismakah let-the-kids-decide strategy is a sham and hugely selfish. It makes the parents feel less guilty, but, statistically, it obviously is itself a decision. Making kids choose religion is worse than letting kids decide whether to go to school or play Nintendo. I have two intermarried siblings. One stepped aside and let the kids be raised as serious Catholics. The other is the typical tree/candles variety. As painful as intermarriage is to see when your people are demographically imploding, I much prefer to see the kids raised with serious commitment to God than to the bland secular nothingness (and liberalism) that is dooming the U.S. Jewish community far worse than anti-semitism ever could.
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