Common misconceptions about the doctrine of "church-state separation"

WallBuilders web site ^ | 2003 | David Barton

[FredFlash]

When I am presented with that "Justice Black was anti-Catholic hogwash", I ask them to show me the anti-Catholic principles established in the decision and let them figure out that they need to actually read the opinion.

I do the same with the claim regarding Daily Opening Prayers in the First U. S. Congress. There is no evidence whatsoever in the official records to support this claim.

The Chaplains only duty was to perform a divine service for the President and Congress right after the President was sworn in and Congress did not even want to hold the service in the Senate Chamber, so they adjourned and the Pesident and Congress walked over to a church as private citizens for the Chaplain's service. (not government officials)

The Chaplains also performed funerals for federal officials who passed on. The Chaplains were the lowest paid of any Congressional employee on the the Civil List any a Chaplain would not have been able to support a family on only $250 a year consider that the Clerk of the House was paid about $1,800 a year and the Continental Congress was paying $1,000 a year when it discontinure the Chaplain to Congress position in 1784.


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Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789 WEDNESDAY, MAY 5, 1784.
Congress assembled: Present, eleven states as yesterday.
A motion was made by Mr. [Samuel] Hardy, seconded by Mr. [Richard Dobbs] Spaight,

A motion was made by Mr. [David] Howell, seconded by Mr. [William] Ellery, to postpone that motion, in order to take into consideration the report of the committee on the reduction of the civil list, which is as follows:

The committee, consisting of Mr. [Hugh] Williamson, Mr. [Elbridge] Gerry, Mr. [James] Tilton, Mr. [Thomas] Jefferson and Mr. [James] McHenry, appointed to consider what reductions may be made in the civil list, have agreed to the following resolutions: That the following offices be discontinued, to wit: The chargé des affaires at the Court of Madrid, whose salary is 4444 dollars. Agent at the Hague, 920 dollars. Second under secretary of foreign affairs, 700 dollars. The Secretary of the war office, 1000 dollars. Agent of marine 1500 dollars. Paymaster, 1000 dollars. Commissary of prisoners, 1200 dollars. The assistant to the Superintendant of finance, 1850 dollars. Three clerks in the office of finance, meaning that three shall remain, 1500 dollars. One clerk to the Comptroller, 500 dollars. Two auditors, 2000 dollars. One Chaplain, 400 dollars. The establishment of a jail, 1338 1/3dollars; doorkeeper to Congress, 400 dos, annual saving will accrue to the United States of 18,752 1/3 dollars.

[FredFlash]

What did Jefferson mean when he said he revered the religion clauses because, "the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions?"

[joebuck]

"What did Jefferson mean when he said he revered the religion clauses because, "the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions?"

Sounds to me like he is saying it's not a legitimate power of government to dictate what people should beieve - like forcing them to financially support and attend an offical State Church. The statement certainly can't justify banning nativity scenes at high schools which are voluntarily created by willing students and faculty. I believe the statement would also apply to "hate crime" legislation, multi-cultural indoctrination and a host of other liberal shibboliths.

[FredFlash]

Do you think that Jefferson believed that the legitimate powers of government reached to a man’s opinions about whether there is “One God Over Our Nation” or whether he should make a graven image or keep the Sabbath or “Trust in God?”

[FredFlash]

Do you believe that a genuine religious act can be one where the prime mover was the government and not God? If a city worker sets up a nativity scene upon the order of the city manager (not God) is that a religious act?

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Point out a sentence or two in Justice Black's opinion that you believe provides anti-Christian ammunition or shut up and go stand over there with all the other little boys that make claims they can't prove.<<<

I already have, and I must admit you are an arrogant little twerp.

>>>MR. MADISON said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that CONGRESS SHOULD NOT ESTABLISH A RELIGION, AND ENFORCED THE LEGAL OBSERVATION OF IT BY LAW, NOR COMPEL MEN TO WORSHIP GOD IN ANY MANNER CONTRARY TO THEIR CONSCIENCE.<<<

And your point is?

FTR, where in the First Amendment is the RIGHTS OF CONSCIENCE located? You see, I have a very hard time reading statements as complex as the First Amendment. I need an loud-mouthed little ACLU type to interpret it for me.

BTW, I don't dispute the Constitution was intended to restrict the powers of the congress.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>I say: Have you ever read the Fourteenth Amendment...<<<

I have read it a time or two, dude, and the original intent was to provide equal protection for blacks (I guess they forgot to teach you that in your public schools).

>>>what makes you more of an authority than James Madison<<<

I never claimed it. For the record, what makes you more of an authority than Oliver Ellsworth (whom you have shown great contempt) and Joseph Story (whom you have shown even greater contempt). No offense, but I must assume them to much more in tune with original intent than you. After all, they had no chance to be brainwashed with the notion of "Separation of Church and State" and other liberal deceits.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Based on the number of times the concept was mentioned, I conclude that the central theme or fundamental premise of the Everson opinion is that government has no legitimate authority over religion. The concept of Separation of Church and State is mentioned only once. I see no way anyone who actually read the decision could possibly conclude that Separation of Church and State was the central theme of the Everson Decision.<<<

Black and the ACLU certainly fooled you.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>The meaning of the establishment clause is, “We Don't Need No Stinkin Advice From The Government On Religion.”<<<

I thought it meant, "We don't need no stinkin advice on morality from the ACLU." Thanks for clearing that up.