Common misconceptions about the doctrine of "church-state separation"

WallBuilders web site ^ | 2003 | David Barton

[frogjerk]

You should read up on the proper way to post to a thread. You are duplicating quite a few posts to everyone on the thread and it is getting annoying...

[FredFlash]

Would you please point out to me the part of Justice Black's opinion in Everson that you believe was influenced by his anti-Catholic views? It appears to me that Black's views were heavily influenced by James Madison. Black mentioned Madison seventy-nine times in his opinion.

P.S. Thomas Jefferson was only mentioned thirty-three times.

[FredFlash]

Which one the framers ever said that the government was never to interfere with traditional religious practices outlined in the Books of the Law and the Gospel?

[FredFlash]

Are we talking public prayer or government recommended prayer?

I take my religious advice from God - not some government stooge "reeking from the anus of his trull."

P.S. James Burgh probably inspired the "wall of separation" with his 1776 work "Crito." Any body happen to know what Burgh meant by "reeking from the anus of his trull?"

[FredFlash]

What is a public acknowledgment of God?

When John Calvin burned people alive in the name of defending the faith, for the crime of not believing what he did about religion, was that a public acknowledgment of God?

[YOUGOTIT]

Black wrote the dissent when he used the church state separation wording.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28567

"Justice Black was avidly anti-Catholic – views "learned in the Ku Klux Klan" and which, no doubt, "influenced his 1947 ruling that the First Amendment created a 'high and impregnable' wall between religion and government," said the Times."

[YOUGOTIT]

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28567

[FredFlash]

It does not really matter what Jefferson said in his 1802 letter to the Baptists, because Justice Hugo Black did not obtain any legal principles or rules from Jefferson. Justice Black was simply stuck with the label that the Reynolds Court had affixed, in 1878, to the Madison Doctrine of Separation.

Read the opinion. The legal principles all come from the works of James Madison.

[FredFlash]

Please show me where Justice Hugo Black said the First Amendment meant a "separation of religion or faith and State."

Black made it clear that "a wall of separation between Church and State" was just another way of saying the following:

The Government cannot set up a church.

The Government cannot aid one religion, aid all religions or prefer one religion over another.

The Government cannot use force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.

The Government cannot punish anyone for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or nonattendance.

The Government cannot tax an individual to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion.

The Government cannot participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa.

Justice Hugo Black never even said the First Amendment meant a "separation of religion or faith and State." Your statement is nothing but a useless misinterpretation of his alleged misinterpretation.

[Sandy]

Black wrote the dissent when he used the church state separation wording.
Justice Black was avidly anti-Catholic – views...which, no doubt, "influenced his 1947 ruling that the First Amendment created a 'high and impregnable' wall between religion and government,"

This is nonsense. Black wrote the majority opinion in Everson, and there was nothing anti-Catholic about it. You may want to read the actual decision. The WND article is garbage.

[seanmerc]

FredFlash,

Here is a public acknowledgement of God: I have received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. He is the supreme authority in my life. He is my King.

I love my country. I spent almost 21 years in the active duty Air Force, including several contingency deployments and combat time. My first allegiance, however, is to the One who created me.

My priorities are: God first; my family second; my country third.

That, my friend, is a public acknowledgement of God. The only force compelling me to say these things is my love for Him. I love Him because He first loved me.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>If a Catholic hating racist wrote the opinion then why did the Court rule in favor of the Catholics.<<<

That statement is deceptive. Black joined the majority so he could interject anti-religious rhetoric into the opinion, according to Mark Levin in his book, "Men in Black". Levin wrote:

"While [Black's opinion] affirmed fair treatment of religion in the public sphere, other portions of Black's opinion established the anti-religious precedent that has done so much damage to religious freedom. He wrote, "No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion." He added, "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach" . . . "According to his biographer, Roger K. Newman, although Black wrote the majority opinion upholding the use of public funds to transport children to Catholic schools, he did so for the purpose of undercutting the true meaning of the religion clauses ... [Black] joined the majority in order to thwart them from the inside-and he succeeded. Today, Everson is remembered more for the easily understood "wall" metaphor than for the fact that state funds were used to reimburse the parents of parochial students."

Levin added, "[Black] had been a member of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1920s, when the Klan was deeply resentful of the growing influence of Catholicism in the United States. According to Hugo Black, Jr., his father shared the Klan's dislike of the Catholic Church: "The Ku Klux Klan and Daddy, so far as I could tell, had one thing in common. He suspected the Catholic Church. He used to read all of Paul Blanshard's books exposing the power abuse in the Catholic Church. He thought the Pope and the bishops had too much power and property. He resented the fact that rental property owned by the Church was not taxed; he felt they got most of their revenue from the poor and did not return enough of it.""

While this doesn't prove Black was a Catholic-hating bigot, he clearly wrote the opinion in a way that would undermine our religious tradition. He gave the left-wing kook organizations, such as the ACLU and the modern-day "Americans United for Separation of Church and State" and the so-called "People for the American Way", plenty of anti-Christian ammunition.

[mrsmith]

You're confused, they did approve. The rest of that page is about something else.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

"It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers..."

Accomodation is not establishment, as Jefferson and Madison knew.

[FredFlash]

I am very familiar with the LOC exhibit. If you click on the links in the exhibit and examine the actual documents, you find that the evidence does not, in numerous cases, support the claim.

[FredFlash]

The LOC offers no evidence to support its claim that within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives.

[FredFlash]

Where is the evidence to support your claims?

[FredFlash]

What is anti-religious about prohibiting the government from establishing a legal duty of an individual to contribute to the financial support of religion. I will contribute to the financial support of the religion that God tells me to contribute to. My duty is to God, and if you and the government don't like it, the both of you can go back to the Temple of Satan where you worship or take a holiday in hell.

[FredFlash]

If Justice Black undercut the true meaning of the religion clauses then why don’t you tell me in a sentence or two just what the clauses do mean and why?

[FredFlash]

How did Justice Black provide anti-Christian ammunition by acknowledging James Madison’s authority on the meaning of the religion clauses, a policy adopted by the Court in 1878 in the matter of Reynolds v. United States?

[FredFlash]

Well said. I hope your statement was genuine and directed by your conscience and not the product of a government recommendation that you make the statement.