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There Will Be No Civil Liberties If We Lose This War
The New Media Journal.us ^ | December 30, 2005 | Frank Salvato

Posted on 01/01/2006 2:55:51 PM PST by SunSetSam

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To: Dan Evans
We read about it pretty much every week. And the press only gets wind of these stories when someone complains to them -- so we can assume it happens more often.

I dont think we can assume that. A basic tenent of media is that if it's unusual, it gets lots of media time, because it will interest people. I taught at a HS for 5 years. I never saw most of what we hear about in the media. For the most part, the inmates were running the assylum.

BTW I think homeschooling is the way to go.

susie

221 posted on 01/02/2006 2:30:45 PM PST by brytlea (I'm not a conspiracy theorist....really.)
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To: Dan Evans
If you are a member of a political party, the information collected from a phone tap can be used against you.

If this was a matter of the President's collecting information to use against his political enemies, then that would be a concern. But that doesn't appear to be what's happening here.

As I see it, the federal government's listening in on a terrorist plot in someone's phone conversation ranks about the same level of intrusiveness as their searching through that person's luggage for a bomb.

222 posted on 01/02/2006 2:31:14 PM PST by Dave Olson
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To: Dan Evans

They certainly aren't doing everything they should be doing, (and do alot of things they shouldn't) but when they do something they should be doing (defending us against evildoers) they get raked over the coals. Maybe they just can't decide which thing will get them less bad press.
susie


223 posted on 01/02/2006 2:32:21 PM PST by brytlea (I'm not a conspiracy theorist....really.)
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To: Dan Evans

"I might buy this if I didn't see them completely ignoring things that they have been specifically tasked with doing. They should be controlling the borders but they don't. But what they do seem to be doing is enlarging their authority to restrict our rights and collect information on us."

I agree completely...I would only add to that list.
Complete overhaul of the immigration process, better oversight on shipping containers coming into the country, and checking the cargo in passenger flights..But I must say, I agree completely with where you are coming from. You are a wise man.


224 posted on 01/02/2006 2:32:45 PM PST by conservativehoney (I don't ask for handouts, so why should I handout to others??)
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To: conservativehoney

If by checking the cargo in passenger flights you mean passenger's bags (maybe you mean something else) why is that not terribly intrusive? I really hate the idea of those guys looking at my undies!
susie


225 posted on 01/02/2006 2:34:00 PM PST by brytlea (I'm not a conspiracy theorist....really.)
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To: conservativehoney

What Badray said. If you are involved in a flare-up on these boards, just add our names to the "To" box in your posts and we'll come and give you some help.


226 posted on 01/02/2006 2:41:38 PM PST by JTN ("I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum. And I'm all out of bubble gum.")
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To: Dan Evans
Freedom is not a frivolous luxury,

You missed my point. Freedom without a country to practice it in, is useless. ie:freedom taste good on a cracker.

Freedoms can be regained, destruction and annihilation cannot.

Backwards. We can always rebuild our buildings. Terrorists can never kill so many of us that we cannot replace our population. But once enough freedom is lost, it can be nearly impossible to get it back. A tyrant can not loosen his grip without losing his life.

There will be no tyrant in the United States. I have more faith in our citizens to believe that for a second. How do you suggest that we rebuild buildings should the worse scenario happen? Our economy will be destroyed. No money.

This country is the richest country in the world largely because, for years, we were the most free. Freedom creates wealth and wealth creates security.

How long would we stay rich? Let's say for the sake of argument that New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, and any large city was wiped out. Do you honestly think that people would be scrambling to rebuild cities or scrambling to feed people? With our open borders anything is possible.

If al queda is calling 555-2355, I want to know who they are talking too, that could prevent that scenario from ever coming to fruition.

227 posted on 01/02/2006 2:45:06 PM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: pbrown
In a theoretical war, and that's what we re talking about here, what good are freedoms when your enemy doesn't believe in freedoms?

That's why we are strong and they are weak. Freedom creates free enterprise which creates wealth that we need to create a strong military. They have to use box-cutters.

In our world rights can be regained and reinstated.

Don't that for granted. If we lose enough of our rights, we may never regain them because we won't have the freedom to do it.

Americans will never lose the 2nd amendment.

Some already have. In New York City and some other big cities.

As far as she becoming president...she isn't going to become president.

How about Al Gore? He came within a few votes of becoming president.

228 posted on 01/02/2006 2:47:18 PM PST by Dan Evans
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To: conservativehoney

You freakin' rock!


229 posted on 01/02/2006 2:47:34 PM PST by JTN ("I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum. And I'm all out of bubble gum.")
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To: conservativehoney; JTN; Badray
What Badray said. If you are involved in a flare-up on these boards, just add our names to the "To" box in your posts and we'll come and give you some help.

Or in laymans terms, if you start something you can't finish...call for backup.

230 posted on 01/02/2006 2:55:08 PM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: brytlea

Sometimes shippers will ship via passenger flights to cut costs, plus it's a money maker for the airlines. So essentially what happens is cargo gets onto passenger planes that has no "passenger" to go with it. (Basically it means that bulk cargo is shipped in passenger flights.) Yea, I don't like the idea of my undies looked at either, but this is actual bulk cargo that has not been screened, and the person that is sending it isn't screened either..


231 posted on 01/02/2006 2:55:38 PM PST by conservativehoney (I don't ask for handouts, so why should I handout to others??)
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To: conservativehoney

OK then I agree with you. Actually, I wouldn't like my undies looked at (oh gosh, I can hear the laughter now!) if it meant the plane would be safer, then I would go for it. But, in the name of full disclosure, I don't fly anyway, so it's rather moot.
susie


232 posted on 01/02/2006 2:57:29 PM PST by brytlea (I'm not a conspiracy theorist....really.)
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To: brytlea
"The terrorists hate us for our freedom"
I keep hearing this, but I don't believe it.

Terrorists hate us for our freedom for a very practical and rational reason. They want to take freedom from their people. They want to control and subjugate people and they want them to believe that it is necessary.

But when those people see that America is a strong and wealthy nation, even though we are free, it puts the lie to their claims.

Therefore they have to either destroy us, or to eliminate our freedom.

233 posted on 01/02/2006 2:59:41 PM PST by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
The Bill of Rights has been suspended on previous occasions (Lincoln and FDR) so your very point of whether it "can" be done is moot. So I will say it again, Bush used powers assigned to him by Congress. The Supreme Court has not ruled the acts unconstitutional. Therefore, under the current system of doing things (thanks to Marbury vs. Madison) he has acted properly. That is the simple, dispassionate fact of the matter.
234 posted on 01/02/2006 3:01:16 PM PST by SunSetSam
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To: Dan Evans
That's why we are strong and they are weak. Freedom creates free enterprise which creates wealth that we need to create a strong military. They have to use box-cutters.

That was in 2001, the box-cutters. In 20006, they're talking about nukes.

Don't that for granted. If we lose enough of our rights, we may never regain them because we won't have the freedom to do it.

I do, because I have more faith in our citizens.

Some already have. In New York City and some other big cities.

You're talking about a leftist liberal city. They don't like guns. You can bet any other city you're talking about is a leftist one in a blue state.

How about Al Gore? He came within a few votes of becoming president.

And one of those few votes was mine. But close only counts in horseshoes.

235 posted on 01/02/2006 3:10:20 PM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: JTN
Thank you!! I can't take the all the credit though...My Daddy taught me well... My father was the most conservative (honest, trustworthy, fair, fiscally responsible) man I've ever met...He taught me well.
236 posted on 01/02/2006 3:11:25 PM PST by conservativehoney (I don't ask for handouts, so why should I handout to others??)
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To: SunSetSam

Excellent post!


237 posted on 01/02/2006 3:13:24 PM PST by The_Media_never_lie
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To: brytlea
What I really wish is that some of our founding fathers could come back, look at the world today (technology, the geopolitical landscape, etc) and tell us exactly what they think NOW about what they said THEN. I am willing to be absolutely wrong, but I would like to hear it from their lips (and not old quotes in which no one could have possibly imagined today's world).

This is a common argument to justify rollbacks in the Bill of Rights. "The founders didn't know about automatic weapons", so let's retire the 2nd amendment.

But since we can't bring them back to life, this is an academic discussion. The fact that give truth to their arguments is that we haven't called a constitutional convention to update it to modern times.

238 posted on 01/02/2006 3:23:01 PM PST by Dan Evans
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To: SunSetSam
This has got to be one of the stupidist bits of reasoning ever. The Islamic hordes are not invading our shore (they talk a good game, but they do not have much actual game), and even if the Democrats got there way and we pulled back to our own shores tomorrow, it would have no bearing on us losing our civil liberties.

The author of this article has a loss of perspective that borders on delusional.

239 posted on 01/02/2006 3:26:32 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: penowa

It appears that the ACLU considers the enemy (terrorlamists) of their enemy (free capitalist america) their friend.


240 posted on 01/02/2006 3:29:33 PM PST by DonnerT
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