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To: Johnnyboy2000
1) Israel is not concerned with the national security of the United States. They are only concerned with the national security of Israel.
Israel has other concerns such as the welfare of Jews in other countries. It also would have gone to war withe USSR had the Cold War gone hot in the 1970s and 1980s.

2) Israel has stolen US technology and sold it to our good friends the Chinese and Russians.
I suppose Israelis may have stolen US technology and resold it. However, Israel certainly has reverse engineered American equipment and improved upon it. First with American approval, and later without, Israel sold systems to China and Russia.
Still, the US sells or gives weapons to Israel's enemies, and trained members of the PLO who have killed Israelis.

3) Israel has formed a powerful lobbying organization inside the US that attempts highjack US foreign policy so that it serves Israel's objectives.
AIPAC and ZOA are independent from Israel.
And President George H W Bush and President WJB Clinton interfered in Israeli elections to defeat Likud.
The US funds PAlestinian parties who try to destroy Israel.

4) The Israeli Government insults the US time and again by trying to strongarm us into turning over this criminal who jeopardized the safety of all the American people on Israel's behalf.
It is in bad form. However, Israel's recent actions were the reverse.

5) Israel intentionally attacked the Liberty and killed 34 Americans.
Israeli forces attacked a ship which happened to be an Amrican spy ship in the wrong position. Had Israel's request for a Naval Liason been honored, such a mistake could not have occured. Of course, if you think that Israel had enough pull to attack an American ship and get away with it, wouldn't it have been easier to preven thte ship from bing in the waters?
At any rate, this mater has been investigated thorouughly and Israel has apologized for the mistake and paid restitution.

6) Israel founders committed the same types of terrorist acts that they now condemn, but this was before they had the most powerful countries on earth supplying them with modern weapons.
Which Israeli leaders targetted civilians in order to commit genocide?

7) Israel has been a destablizing force in the region for the past 57 years.
Islam has been a destabilizing agent since 622.

8) Nobody pays a higher price for Israel's actions than the American people.
One could also argue the reverse. Israel has failed to respond to attacks and failed to defeat enemies at the behest of the US.

9) Palestinians actually are human beings. They are not some animals that need to be exterminated from the earth. BR<> A. No one is calling for extermination. Under Israeli control, the Arabs of the disputed territories prospered and tripled in number.
B. They can go to the 3/4 of Palestine, Jordan! There are also 21 other Arab nations.

10) Israel would not exist without the help of the USA, USSR, Britain, and France.
The Third Israeli Commonwealth was born with foreign aid. Of course, these countries also imposed an embargo on arming Jews after arming the Arabs.
That Israel survived suggests the influence of a Greater Power.

11) The Palestinian based groups fighting Israel have no plans to take over America, and that is a ludicrous claim.
Youy are utterly ignorant of the pedigree and beliefs of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
Go read the Koran and Sayeed Qutb and get back to me.

12) The Islamic groups like Al-Qaeda that want to dominate the world and region and attack the US and Eurpoe are not the same thing as the Palestinian people and their groups that want to restore their country.
There has never been an Arab country of "Palestine" except for Jordan.
As for the will of the ARabs of the disputed territories, they support Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, all Islamists. The first two openly call for a military conquest of the world.

13) Israel never has and never will take military action to defend the United States, but their powerful lobbying groups want the US to invade the entire middle east so that Israel can be more secure.
A. Israel conducted certain missions in Lebanon at the behest of the US.
B. At the behest of the US, Israel failed to press military advantage in 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1983.
C. The Mossad was pushed to trade arms for American hostages. Many of these weapons were handed over to Hizbullah by Iran. D. The US has pressured Israel to give up much of its territory, including most holy sites and its capital, at the behest of US interests.

14) Just because someone points out these things, it does not make them a terrorist sympathizer. I have a much bigger problem with Islamists than I do with Israel, but I still dislike the way Israel conducts itself.
It seems to me that you should do some more reading.

16) The Palestinian people should be angry about how they have been treated. The fact that some Plaestinian leaders are evil, insane criminal nuts who strap bombs to lttle kids so that they can kill women and children does not change the fact the Palestinian people were wronged during the founding of Israel.
I take it that you have handed over your home to Native Americans and support the Mexican immigration reconquista?

Israel has some claim on the land. American legitimacy rests solely on force.

213 posted on 01/18/2006 12:19:21 AM PST by rmlew (Sedition and Treason are both crimes, not free speech.)
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To: rmlew
We can agree to disagree I suppose. I am not 100% sure about this because this thread is too long to review in its entirety, but I believe that you are the only person on the other side who hasn't resorted to calling me a racist Nazi, or an anti-Semite so I appreciate you sticking to the argument at hand. I do know where you are coming from in a lot of ways.

My big disagreement with people on your side of this issue is that I feel you guys think it is way too black and white. I have no illusions about what Hamas and Hezbollah are. I feel that is no modern Israeli group that is on a moral equivalence with these groups; however, that is not to say that there is not a legitimacy to the Palestinian cause. The sooner Israelis accept this, the sooner they will ensure their nation's future. Look at the progress made with Egypt and Jordan. It is progress no matter what anyone on either side says. America has to play both sides of this issue for a multitude of reasons. Mainly because we are a world power that has to stay above regional border disputes and civil wars.
217 posted on 01/18/2006 12:58:50 AM PST by Johnnyboy2000 (Give it all up tomorrow to live in world without crime, and go back to the circuit riding motocross)
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