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To: AppyPappy
First, we use the KJV, so our translations are a little different than yours. What version of the Bible are you using?

>>It's difficult to determine whether this is simply a logical vehicle based on a
>>Corinthian practice rather than a Christian practice. Oddly, it only appears
>>once in the entire Bible. Anyway, Mormons practice proxy membership, not
>>baptism in the sense of the text. The practice does not symbolically cleanse
>>sin in the same way as Baptism. Mormons use it to seal to the church, much
>>like a Methodist litany for church membership.

The Corinthian’s being written to were Christians. The Pharisees were practicing baptism for the dead long before, Christ’s ministry started. There is controversy outside the Mormon Church on this issue, a quick Google turned up this site (http://www.bibleman.net/Baptisim_for_dead.htm), which a brief perusal tells me is most useful in explaining what is going on. Here are some quotes from this site, which includes scriptural references.

First of all, we need to ask ourselves, To whom Paul was referring when he wrote “why are THEY then baptized for the dead?” Who are “they”? He couldn’t have been referring to the Corinthians otherwise he would have written "why are YOU being baptized for the dead?" At the same time whoever Paul was referring to was somebody whom the Corinthians were aware of otherwise it would have made no sense for him to mention them. It is just as clear that the people Paul was referring to must have been well respected to be mentioned as an EXAMPLE to his readers. In verse 30 we see that Paul considered himself as one of "THEM." Therefore it is obvious that he included himself in the group he is referring to (see also verses 9, 10, 11, 14 and 19 of the same chapter). This is very important because Paul is not only pointing to these people as an example but also as his TESTIMONY to the people he is writing to concerning the resurrection.

And

It is true that we have just this one reference regarding baptism for the dead but both Peter and Jesus explained that the gospel was preached to the dead. Just before ascending into heaven, Jesus issued the command, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Matthew 28:19). Baptism is a consequence of accepting the gospel. If the gospel is being preached to the dead, they it stands to reason that they must also be baptized in order to accept the gospel, otherwise preaching the gospel to them is useless.

>>The boy is sick, not dead. I don't get that one. Jesus says he is healed and he is healed.

You said Proxy baptism was “Strange and UnBiblical” Proxy work is very Biblical, that was the point of the scripture about the centurion’s son.

>>The practice does not symbolically cleanse sin in the same way as
>>Baptism. Mormons use it to seal to the church, much like a
>>Methodist litany for church membership.

As a Mormon, who has attended the Temple, performed Baptisms for my ancestors, and been baptized by Proxy for my ancestors, we are doing it precisely so their sins can be remitted. If the dead accept this proxy baptism in the next world, they can go directly into Christ’s kingdom. They would be dammed unless someone in mortality had performed the ordinance of baptism, with the proper authority, for them (Much the same way Christ had to be mortal to perform the Atonement, or he couldn’t die for our sins). Do they suddenly join our ranks as Mormons? No, they are not here in mortality; they join the Church of Christ on the other side of the veil.

Have I cleared this up, or just muddied it?
400 posted on 01/26/2006 4:55:41 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser

The "They" is not in the Greek. It was inferred by the interpreter. It's "epi tis poieo baptizo huper ho/he/to nekros"(bad Greek lettering). literally "Otherwise who do baptise for the sake of the dead". It almost sounds like "who does baptise for the dead if the dead do not awaken? Why is it done?"

The Corinthians were heavily influence by the Greeks and did not preach the resurrection of the body. They believed only the spirit went to heaven therefore you could do anything you want with the body (ie fornication). Paul preaches the resurrection of the body which must therefore be kept holy.

http://www.e-sword.net will get you Bible software that has the original Greek. I'm using Modern King James. I find the King James sometimes guesses at meaning.

Here is an interesting commentary. Paul seems to be mocking the practice because they don't believe in the bodily resurrection. Why do you baptise the body for someone if they don't take the body to Heaven?

ALFORD thinks there is an allusion to a practice at Corinth of baptizing a living person in behalf of a friend who died unbaptized; thus Paul, without giving the least sanction to the practice, uses an ad hominem argument from it against its practicers, some of whom, though using it, denied the resurrection: "What account can they give of their practice; why are they at the trouble of it, if the dead rise not?" [So Jesus used an ad hominem argument, Mat_12:27]. But if so, it is strange there is no direct censure of it. Some Marcionites adopted the practice at a later period, probably from taking this passage, as ALFORD does; but, generally, it was unknown in the Church. BENGEL translates, "over (immediately upon) the dead," that is, who will be gathered to the dead immediately after baptism. Compare Job_17:1, "the graves are ready for me." The price they get for their trouble is, that they should be gathered to the dead for ever (1Co_15:13, 1Co_15:16). Many in the ancient Church put off baptism till near death. This seems the better view; though there may have been some rites of symbolical baptism at Corinth, now unknown, perhaps grounded on Jesus' words (Mat_20:22-23), which Paul here alludes to. The best punctuation is, "If the dead rise not at all, why are they then baptized for them" (so the oldest manuscripts read the last words, instead of "for the dead")?


401 posted on 01/26/2006 5:58:53 PM PST by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: DelphiUser
As a Mormon, who has attended the Temple, performed Baptisms for my ancestors, and been baptized by Proxy for my ancestors, we are doing it precisely so their sins can be remitted. If the dead accept this proxy baptism in the next world, they can go directly into Christ’s kingdom. They would be dammed unless someone in mortality had performed the ordinance of baptism, with the proper authority, for them (Much the same way Christ had to be mortal to perform the Atonement, or he couldn’t die for our sins). Do they suddenly join our ranks as Mormons? No, they are not here in mortality; they join the Church of Christ on the other side of the veil.

Wow. I didn't know that. That seems to fly in the face of the immediate need for Salvation. The whole point of the message is that we should be Saved before we die because there is a point of no return. How is that concept different from Purgatory? Also, forgetting the fact that I don't think Mormons believe in Salvation outside the Mormon Church. Otherwise, how would you know if your ancestors were Saved?

The Elders come by every year. I should ask them this stuff.

402 posted on 01/26/2006 6:04:21 PM PST by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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