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What Are Creationists Afraid Of?
The New Individualist ^ | 1/2006 | Ed Hudgins

Posted on 01/26/2006 1:47:10 PM PST by jennyp

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To: jennyp
Third, complexity does not imply “design.” One of Adam Smith’s most powerful insights, developed further by Friedrich Hayek, is that incredible complexity can emerge in society without a designer or planner, through “spontaneous order.” Hayek showed how in a free market the complex processes of producing and distributing goods and services to millions of individuals do not require socialist planners. Rather, individuals pursuing their own self-interest in a system governed by a few basic rules—property rights, voluntary exchange by contract—have produced all the vast riches of the Western world.

Bad analogy.

In economics, intelligent people are influencing the money trails and situations in organized manners, not just letting the money sit in a bank until some outside force makes more money or less money or different money.

. What a horrible analogy, not even related.

1,221 posted on 01/30/2006 1:38:02 PM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
The link also states that Haeckel's theories were not and have not been taught for years. There is nothing wrong with using embryological evidence to support evolution.

Baloney. The site says:

As it turns out, Haeckel's contemporaries had spotted the fraud during his lifetime, and got him to admit it. However, his drawings nonetheless became the source material for diagrams of comparative embryology in nearly every biology textbook, including ours!

Not only that, but according to this news story, it took a 2003 court case here in Texas to remove drawings based on Haeckel's drawings from 2 textbooks and to remove from one book the claim that animal embryos have gill slits. It's worth noting that a group promoting the teaching of evolution in schools agreed with the creationist group on these items. Are you proud that it's creationists who are having to correct textbooks?

And, despite what creationists claim, Darwin NEVER used Haeckel's drawings, nor his arguments, to bolster evolution.

Really? Perhaps one reason for that was that "Origin of the Species" was published in 1859 and Haeckel's theories weren't published until 1866 and his his drawings weren't published until 1874.

Those who came after Darwin used both Haeckel's drawings and his arguments. The drawings in the book I linked to were based on Haeckel's drawings, for goodness' sake!

It was Haeckel who was a big promoter of Darwin, not the other way around. Check your history.


1,222 posted on 01/30/2006 1:42:27 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: DallasMike
"Baloney."

Yes, your point is baloney. I said that Haeckel's theories were not and have not been taught for years. Your link did not say his THEORIES have been taught, only that pictures based on his drawings were in some textbooks. Learn to read.

"Not only that, but according to this news story, it took a 2003 court case here in Texas to remove drawings based on Haeckel's drawings from 2 textbooks and to remove from one book the claim that animal embryos have gill slits."

They DO have gill slits (not gills, but the slits). It appears the court is as ignorant as you are. One of their other examples, the peppered moth studies, had an equally wrong conclusion.

"West noted that other researchers found that peppered moths don't rest on exposed places of tree trunks. Citing an article last year in The New York Times about those findings, he said some texts had deleted any reference to the moths, but several had retained them. "

They DID rest on the exposed places of tree trunks. This proves if you have a stupid enough judge/jury, you can get any sort of silly verdict.

"Those who came after Darwin used both Haeckel's drawings and his arguments."

Most didn't. And not for about 100 years. Again, using the drawings is NOT the same as promoting the biogenic law, which has been known to be false for some time now and is NOT taught. That there are stages that vertebrates go through in the early stages of embryological development that support evolution is true. That is why when I went to school we had actual photos.
1,223 posted on 01/30/2006 1:54:27 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Yes, your point is baloney. I said that Haeckel's theories were not and have not been taught for years. Your link did not say his THEORIES have been taught, only that pictures based on his drawings were in some textbooks. Learn to read.
Check my original post. It was about Haeckel's drawings, which were bogus. Not only that, but when you tried to switch topics you got yourself into more of a mess because then you have to try to ignore the fact that the whole gill slit idea was popularized by Haeckel and was in a Texas textbook until at least 2003.
They DO have gill slits (not gills, but the slits). It appears the court is as ignorant as you are. One of their other examples, the peppered moth studies, had an equally wrong conclusion.
Your temper is getting the best of you. Of course animal embryos don't have gill slits, but why did creationists have to go to court in 2003 to have these statements removed from a textbook? That's the point. I agree with you on evolution more than you probably believe but it's an embarassment that people who believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old are having to correct textbooks preaching long-debunked theories.
They DID rest on the exposed places of tree trunks. This proves if you have a stupid enough judge/jury, you can get any sort of silly verdict.
If you're actually interested in the peppered moth controversy, read this from Jonathan Wells of Berkeley. It's from the May 24, 1999 version of The Scientist (a very credible publication and one that I had the pleasure of reading for years) and the the title byline says "this classical story of evolution by natural selection needs revising."
"And not for about 100 years. Again, using the drawings is NOT the same as promoting the biogenic law, which has been known to be false for some time now and is NOT taught. That there are stages that vertebrates go through in the early stages of embryological development that support evolution is true. That is why when I went to school we had actual photos.
Again, if biogenics is not taught, then why did a group have to go to court in 2003 to get the gill slits nonsense removed from a textbook? That's not exactly 100 years ago.
 
Time to give this topic a rest.


1,224 posted on 01/30/2006 2:30:38 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: DallasMike
"Not only that, but when you tried to switch topics you got yourself into more of a mess because then you have to try to ignore the fact that the whole gill slit idea was popularized by Haeckel and was in a Texas textbook until at least 2003."

And *gill slits* are there.

"Of course animal embryos don't have gill slits, but why did creationists have to go to court in 2003 to have these statements removed from a textbook?"

Yes they do.

"If you're actually interested in the peppered moth controversy, read this from Jonathan Wells of Berkeley."

Wells is a Moonie idiot.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/iconob.html#moths

"Again, if biogenics is not taught, then why did a group have to go to court in 2003 to get the gill slits nonsense removed from a textbook? That's not exactly 100 years ago."

The Biogenic law IS NOT TAUGHT. It hasn't been accepted by evolutionists for decades and decades. It was rejected by Darwin.
1,225 posted on 01/30/2006 2:37:20 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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Creationists are afraid of Alexander the coppesramith placemarker.


1,226 posted on 01/30/2006 2:49:42 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. Pascal)
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To: longshadow
There's counseling, hope, and effective treatments out there for what ails the Grand Master
1,227 posted on 01/30/2006 5:50:38 PM PST by Mamzelle
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
It was taught to me (the gill slits=prior amphibia) in high school. Luckily, I learned a little about real embryology later. I'm sure I'm older than you, but not that old . The developing embryo does some amazing things. It folds back on itself like origami, organs travel around and interweave--marvellous.

It may be a statement of poetry, a model, about the Tree of Life--but that's all it is.

1,228 posted on 01/30/2006 6:15:49 PM PST by Mamzelle
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To: DallasMike
The embryologycanard is alive and well--a regular Urban Legend. I just rented an awful, awful movie, "The Lord of War"--and the Nicholas Cage character said, "at 4 1/2 months the human fetus still has a tail as evidence of our reptile ancestors" and proceded to compare us to snakes...I know that's a Hollywood ignoramus talking, but these notions come from somewhere.
1,229 posted on 01/30/2006 6:21:21 PM PST by Mamzelle
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To: Mamzelle
There's counseling, hope, and effective treatments out there

I wish you all the luck in the world, and hope it is successful for you. Please don't post to me again.

1,230 posted on 01/30/2006 7:06:14 PM PST by longshadow (FReeper #405, entering his ninth year of ignoring nitwits, nutcases, and recycled newbies)
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To: longshadow
I'll try to make this my last post to you. But I'm politely asking, how am I supposed to keep track of who Must Not Be Spoken To, and who can be spoken to? Perhaps your tagline should read, "Don't talk to me"--

Sometimes freepers reply to the text, and care little for the moniker, only to find out that one is posting to the Must Not Be Spoken To. It would be a consideration to identify yourselves in advance.

1,231 posted on 01/30/2006 7:12:33 PM PST by Mamzelle
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To: Mamzelle
Please don't post to me again. Second request.
1,232 posted on 01/30/2006 7:16:42 PM PST by longshadow (FReeper #405, entering his ninth year of ignoring nitwits, nutcases, and recycled newbies)
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To: longshadow

1,233 posted on 01/30/2006 7:23:59 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: Thatcherite
You do not know me or my abilities you. It is you and others who think evolution is a science like biology, chemistry, physics, building, mechanics, learning etc.

Professing themselves wise they became fools. Romans 1:22

.Post 968 fossils do not prove evolution, stalactites do not take thousands of years, moon receding away from the planet would have the land flooded twice a day millions of years ago, magnetic field loosing strength the earth would have to strong a field to support life, sun is shrinking would have been to hot to support life millions of years ago. Now I know all of you freolvutionist believe that these phenomena all fluctuate so that the decay rates of these are not a constant yet you foolishly believe that atomic decay has been constant.

Science is not about acquiring knowledge about the world science is the state or fact of knowing knowledge whether you want to except it or not look it up in a dictionary. Not the Internet, try one that is older also with the original meaning, not the new and improved meaning.
1,234 posted on 01/30/2006 8:08:02 PM PST by Creationist (If the earth is old show me your proof. Salvation from the judgment of your sins is free.)
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To: Mamzelle; PatrickHenry
You speculated about the Grand Master having Asperger Syndrome and generously offered help. You linked to a site which said:

...Recently, some researchers ... have speculated that well-known figures of the past, such as Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton, had Asperger syndrome ... a detailed case study of philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein...

You may be onto something

1,235 posted on 01/30/2006 8:19:11 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Thatcherite; RadioAstronomer
Another poster posted to you:

.... sun is shrinking .....

Another creationist-contrary-to-reality claim!

(Hint for they unenlightened: as the fusion reactions take place in the sun, mass is being converted to energy, and that energy eventualy works it's way to the surface where it is radiated away as light. That means the sun is losing mass slightly over time, which decreases its gravity slightly. The slight decrease in gravity over time leads to an expansion (not contraction) of the size of the sun, as there is less gravity to counteract the thermodynamic pressure of the matter comprising the sun; hence the sun expands slight as it ages, which means it is larger now than it was several billions of years ago. Additionally, the sun's energy output increases with time; this also requires the solar radius to increase, as the increased energy output in the core further offsets the tendency of the gravity of the sun to compress its contents.

IOW, for the vast majority of the lifetime of the sun, its size increases with age. Hence, a billion years ago, it was smaller, not larger, than it is now.

IOW, your interlocutor couldn't have been more wrong if he tried.

1,236 posted on 01/30/2006 9:11:07 PM PST by longshadow (FReeper #405, entering his ninth year of ignoring nitwits, nutcases, and recycled newbies)
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To: Creationist
You do not know me or my abilities [sic] you.

Yes I do. Your abilities shine through in your posting history. Your knowledge of science struggles to reach the level "rudimentary" yet you have neither the humility nor the wisdom to accept that.

It is you and others who think evolution is a science like biology, chemistry, physics, building, mechanics, learning etc.

Evolution is science. It explains the observations we have. It has predicted numerous observations "before the fact". The observations that would falsify evolution have not been made; instead its predictions turn out to be true, again, and again, and again.

Professing themselves wise they became fools. Romans 1:22

Irrelevant scripture.

.Post 968 fossils do not prove evolution

Science does not deal in proof. Science deals in evidence. The evidence of the fossil record overwhelmingly supports evolution, along with many other forms of cross-correlating evidence.

, stalactites do not take thousands of years, moon receding away from the planet would have the land flooded twice a day millions of years ago, magnetic field loosing strength the earth would have to strong a field to support life, sun is shrinking would have been to hot to support life millions of years ago. Now I know all of you freolvutionist [sic] believe that these phenomena all fluctuate so that the decay rates of these are not a constant yet you foolishly believe that atomic decay has been constant.

Oh dear, a set of arguments so woefully ignorant and wrong-headed that even websites like the arch-YEC site "Answers in Genesis" say that they are fallacies and should not be used. Buy a clue. We have evidence for the fluctuating phenomena (that the fluctuations are real). In many cases we understand the physical mechanisms that cause fluctuation. For example the ocean floor near the transoceanic ridges is magnetically striped; this allows us to see past magnetic reversals in the new ocean floor created in the last few million years. Astronomical observations that give us consistent results tell us that atomic decay rates are constant. For example we can see the rate of decay of isotopes in close supernovae such as SN1987A, whose distance has been calculated using simple trigonometry at 170,000 light years. That indicates that decay rates 170,000 years ago were the same as they are now. Other much more distant supernovae show the same rates. Recent decay rates of Carbon 14 have been calibrated using tree-rings, varves, and archaeological inferences. In every case the assumption that decay-rates are constant is borne out by consistent results, even when different methods are used. If decay rates had been varying these methods would not even seem to work. Others have posted several articles (including articles from Christian websites) explaining radiometric decay in this thread, and debunking the oft-repeated creationist lies about it.

Incidentally you are being inconsistent. In your first paragraph you acknowledged that biology, chemistry, physics are sciences. Yet then you proceed to present a set of ignorant young-earth arguments which if true would invalidate the whole of atomic physics, astronomy, zoology, genetics, cosmology, astronomy, archeology etc. There would essentially be no science left if YEC were true. Yet, without a single successful prediction to YECs name, somehow we are expected to junk the whole of science in order to fit in with the expected results of a myth written by nomadic goatherds.

Science is not about acquiring knowledge about the world science is the state or fact of knowing knowledge whether you want to except [sic] it or not look it up in a dictionary. Not the Internet, try one that is older also with the original meaning, not the new and improved meaning.

You want to use archaic word meanings (and good luck in finding one that matches your contention) that's fine by me. I'll use the modern meaning, that is actually used by real, practicing scientists, not an ignoramus who shares his ignorance of science with us all.

1,237 posted on 01/31/2006 12:20:07 AM PST by Thatcherite (More abrasive blackguard than SeaLion or ModernMan)
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Out of Town Until Saturday Night Placemarker


1,238 posted on 01/31/2006 2:13:41 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Thatcherite; Creationist
Oh dear, a set of arguments so woefully ignorant and wrong-headed that even websites like the arch-YEC site "Answers in Genesis" say that they are fallacies and should not be used.

And if AiG says it's a bad argument, then it must really be a bad argument.

Then again, I don't know if anyone actually reads AiG all the way through....

1,239 posted on 01/31/2006 7:48:19 AM PST by highball ("I never should have switched from scotch to martinis." -- the last words of Humphrey Bogart)
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To: Virginia-American
True, if the Grand Master were indeed a scientist instead of an obsessive.

But I don't know any working scientist with his kind of leisure and attitude, nor single-purpose devotion not to science but to finding evo-doubters on a conservative forum--rather a reliably fruitful hunting expidition.

And the scientists of my acquaintance (and who they are might surprise you, however, this is just an anonymous forum...) are not rhetorical bullies and sneaky little cowardly, childish backstabbers who get quislings to do his arguing for him.

According to some odd and unnamed custom, he can talk and sneak around on FR posters, but can never be confronted directly, or he'll run squawking and sniveling to the mods. I know some mods on other political and gaming fora--and they hate being bothered with that kind of infantile behavior.

But YOU can call it debate. And I'll be around for your bullying sessions to warn the freepers who think that the conversation is in good faith, when it's not--

1,240 posted on 01/31/2006 9:02:36 AM PST by Mamzelle
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