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A young Winston Churchill analyses Islam
The River War | 1899 | Winston Churchill

Posted on 02/09/2006 9:30:39 AM PST by Neville72

Sir Winston S. Churchill -- the same man who would go on to lead the free world through its darkest hours during the second world war -- tells the tale of the Anglo-Egyptian reconquest of the Sudan. It isn't just an account of the battles and the politics; it's the story of the destiny of the people of the region: Churchill with his powerful insight tells the the war changed the fates of England, Egypt, and the Arabian peoples in northeast Africa.

Sir Winston Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 (London: Longmans, Green | 1899

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism[72 virgins, I'm assuming] deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: churchill; islam; muslim; rop
Still true over a hundred years later. Amazing!
1 posted on 02/09/2006 9:30:40 AM PST by Neville72
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To: Neville72

The memory of the Wahabaist massacre of a British force in Sudan must have impressed him.


2 posted on 02/09/2006 9:32:06 AM PST by Semper Paratus
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To: Neville72

Thanks for the post... best thing I've read all day... Europe could use the likes of Churchill right now thats for sure.


3 posted on 02/09/2006 9:34:14 AM PST by stand4somethin
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To: Neville72
"No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."


Still true.

The American Democrat Party is a close second.


Perhaps one day soon neither will exist.





4 posted on 02/09/2006 9:39:11 AM PST by G.Mason (Duty, Honor, Country)
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To: Semper Paratus
In 1885 a Holy Warrior who claimed to be the MAHDI (the expected one) attached and slaughtered the entire population of Khartoum, the Sudan. The defender who was beheaded was General Charles Gordon ( Chinese Gordon). A few months after this battle, the Mahdi died for no apparent reason (unless you believe it was justice for his misdeeds). It took 15 years for the Egyptian and British to avenge this and bring the Sudan back to normal.
5 posted on 02/09/2006 9:41:22 AM PST by wmileo
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To: Neville72

Sir Winston wasn't PC thats for sure. I just wish we had someone who would read this critique of Islam on the news. I heard Victor Davis Hansen give a similiar critique a couple of weeks ago but I wish we had a statesman in office who could take a stand like this.


6 posted on 02/09/2006 9:42:31 AM PST by stand4somethin
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To: Neville72
[72 virgins, I'm assuming]

I don't think so. More likely, he was referring to folks who sit around for hours daily, chewing khat, smoking, drinking coffee, etc.

7 posted on 02/09/2006 9:45:14 AM PST by r9etb
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To: stand4somethin
I wish we had a statesman in office who could take a stand like this.

The disadvantage of being a statesman in office is that "taking a stand like this" necessarily includes having to commit diplomatic and/or military resources to back up your words.

The advantage of VDH or Churchill (who at the time was primarily a pundit) is that they can say these things, but don't have to back them up with action; the best they can hope for is to convince a "statesman in office" to commit troops.

8 posted on 02/09/2006 9:48:24 AM PST by r9etb
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To: stand4somethin

You're quite welcome. I read everything of Churchill's that I can get my hands on and I never seem to get enough. He's a master of the language---both written and spoken.


9 posted on 02/09/2006 9:51:24 AM PST by Neville72 (uist)
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To: wmileo

Mohammed Ahmed believed he was the Mahdi because he had a space between his teeth. Good movies on this are Khartoum and The Four Feathers. Check out the old Colonel in The Four Feathers. He was the basis for Commander McBragg.


10 posted on 02/09/2006 9:52:33 AM PST by massgopguy (massgopguy)
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To: stand4somethin

"I just wish we had someone who would read this critique of Islam on the news."

And THAT is the problem. Like it or not most of America is still informed by the MSM. Until the crazy muzzi-kazis start knocking off members of the MSM, we'll continue to hear slanted stories that tell us how it's all the west's fault, and that muslims are simply oppressed peace lovers.


11 posted on 02/09/2006 9:55:14 AM PST by brownsfan (It's not a war on terror... it's a war with islam.)
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To: massgopguy

Quite.


12 posted on 02/09/2006 9:56:17 AM PST by brownsfan (It's not a war on terror... it's a war with islam.)
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To: Neville72

Thanks for posting. I have been meaning to read The River War for some time. Now I simply must.


13 posted on 02/09/2006 9:59:26 AM PST by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: Neville72

"It seems to me a certainty that the fatalistic teachings of Mohammed and the utter degradation of the Arab women are the outstanding causes for the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have been developing."

General George S. Patton


14 posted on 02/09/2006 10:01:04 AM PST by Patriot Hooligan ("God have mercy on my enemies because I won't." General George S. Patton)
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To: Neville72
It may well be true, but in 2006 it is just sooo "politically incorrect".

An American Expat in Southeast Asia

15 posted on 02/09/2006 10:04:01 AM PST by expatguy (http://laotze.blogspot.com/)
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To: RKV

Here's another bit of Churchillian wisdom and oratory for the ages and still applicable today, this time delivered in Fulton, Missouri in 1946 and warning of a different foe.


"The United States stands at this time at the pinnacle of world power. It is a solemn moment for the American democracy. For with this primacy in power is also joined an awe-inspiring accountability to the future. As you look around you, you must feel not only the sense of duty done, but also you must feel anxiety lest you fall below the level of achievement. Opportunity is here now, clear and shining, for both our countries. To reject it or ignore it or fritter it away will bring upon us all the long reproaches of the aftertime.

It is necessary that constancy of mind, persistency of purpose, and the grand simplicity of decision shall rule and guide the conduct of the English-speaking peoples in peace as they did in war. We must, and I believe we shall, prove ourselves equal to this severe requirement."


16 posted on 02/09/2006 10:04:14 AM PST by Neville72 (uist)
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To: All

FYI hydrophobia = rabies

IOW islam is the human equivalent of rabies.


17 posted on 02/09/2006 10:05:10 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: Neville72

Unfortunately, the civilization of science will not protect the Europe of 2006.


18 posted on 02/09/2006 10:08:30 AM PST by quadrant
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To: Loud Mime
Speaking of Churchill...

"ping"...

19 posted on 02/09/2006 10:08:34 AM PST by Drammach (In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king..)
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To: Neville72

Words to live by.


20 posted on 02/09/2006 10:10:47 AM PST by roaddog727 (P=3/8 A. or, P=plenty...............)
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To: Neville72
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog


21 posted on 02/09/2006 10:14:30 AM PST by joesnuffy (A camel once bit our sister..but we knew just what to do...we gathered rocks and squashed her!)
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To: wmileo; massgopguy

What I find terribly disturbing today is that the nut job leaders of Iran believe that they can bring about the coming of the Mahdi very soon. Apparently there is a belief among Muslims that the Mahdi will come after a great conflagration and unite the human race. They believe that he will literally bring order after a period of great chaos. Analysts believe that if Iran gets a bomb they may attempt to usher in this period of chaos by using it. Apparently Iran's Ahmadinejad believes that they can bring about the coming of the Mahdi by 2007.

The scary thing is that Christian's believe in the Mahdi too. We just call him the anti-Christ.


22 posted on 02/09/2006 10:17:51 AM PST by Syco
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To: massgopguy
Good movies on this are Khartoum and The Four Feathers.

Thanks, I just added Khartoum to my Netflix queue (love the old epics). I'll pass on 4 Feathers because of negative feedback from people who have seen it.

23 posted on 02/09/2006 10:19:20 AM PST by ExpatCanuck
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To: Neville72

A few folks at the White House & Foggy Bottom should read this.


24 posted on 02/09/2006 10:20:37 AM PST by joesnuffy (A camel once bit our sister..but we knew just what to do...we gathered rocks and squashed her!)
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To: Drammach

Thanks for the ping.

This is VERY interesting.


25 posted on 02/09/2006 10:24:03 AM PST by Loud Mime (Republicans protect Americans from terrorists, Democrats protect terrorists from Americans)
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To: Neville72
A degraded sensualism[72 virgins, I'm assuming]

Maybe, but more likely the attitude that "A woman is a duty but a boy is a joy".

26 posted on 02/09/2006 10:28:13 AM PST by El Gato
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To: Patriot Hooligan
General George S. Patton

Who obviously read Churchill as well as Guderian and Rommel.

27 posted on 02/09/2006 10:31:35 AM PST by El Gato
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To: ExpatCanuck
I saw the original Four Feathers last week-end on, I believe, the TCM channel. It was the third time I watched it and was as good as the first. Don't pass on it because of what others say. Heck, even if it turns out that you don't like it it was only 90 minutes of your life wasted.
28 posted on 02/09/2006 10:31:58 AM PST by Russ
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To: wmileo

for the forum, here's a link to the IMDB site on the film about The Hadhi:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060588/


29 posted on 02/09/2006 10:41:30 AM PST by VOA
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To: El Gato

All great minds think alike.


30 posted on 02/09/2006 10:47:43 AM PST by Patriot Hooligan ("God have mercy on my enemies because I won't." General George S. Patton)
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To: Neville72
I am a great admirer of Winston Churchill and have read thousands of pages by, or about, him. I visited his new museum and have audio CDs of his famous speeches.

That being said, he was still properly accessed as "the last Victorian" and that world view was tempered by the faults of that era.

The governmental structures of the middle east were left ill formed and vestigial by Winston and similar world leaders and we have battled problems for seven decades from the effects of the pre-WWI and post WWI structures they set up that were viewed as benevolent at the time.

In the Indian subcontinent, the residual influence of British Order proved to be a beneficial underlying stabilizer as colonialism was removed -- but WC never thought of Gandhi and the movement around him as little more than a "middle temple lawyer." (A trouble making ambulance chaser) He mistook his aesthetic rather than his nationalism as his central strength.

The Shahs handed power in the middle east had in most instances no beneficial order or the west to moderate them entering the modern world. We got the Nazi partners of the forties and the Wahbists because of that.

Some, such a Egypt and Jordan came through the century with a modern influence, but Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Arabian peninsula were all just so much parceled out fiefdoms to those that the Europeans thought "they could work with."

Kurds and others rightly don't look upon him like we do after a hundred years of western initiated subjugation. Sure, he saw the cultural problems and dangers, but seeing them the western liberal governments froze out the resolutions that were needed and made the problems of today more fixed in stone.

31 posted on 02/09/2006 10:49:42 AM PST by KC Burke (Men of intemperate minds can never be free....)
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To: massgopguy; aculeus; hellinahandcart; Senator Bedfellow
Mohammed Ahmed believed he was the Mahdi because he had a space between his teeth.

Yet another Mahdi?

32 posted on 02/09/2006 10:51:13 AM PST by dighton
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To: Neville72
Churchill's message to Europe today:

"If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
33 posted on 02/09/2006 10:51:35 AM PST by Antoninus (The only reason you're alive today is because your parents were pro-life.)
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To: r9etb
Other than the Khat, that's pretty much me......Oh crap! I'm a muslim! I had no idea....
34 posted on 02/09/2006 10:54:45 AM PST by Uriah_lost (http://www.wingercomics.com/d/20051205.html)
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To: Neville72

Winston S. Churchill, 1896

35 posted on 02/09/2006 10:55:03 AM PST by captain_dave
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To: Neville72

I love it. The more things change, the more they stay the same.


36 posted on 02/09/2006 11:13:02 AM PST by Hypervigilant (Cogito, Ergo FReep.)
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To: Russ

Okay, it's on the queue too. Thanks.


37 posted on 02/09/2006 11:18:03 AM PST by ExpatCanuck
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To: Neville72

Crap - now there will be a call to ban the works of Winston Churchill. /sarc


38 posted on 02/09/2006 11:19:46 AM PST by Fitzcarraldo
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To: Neville72

What's even more amazing is that Churchill was only 24 when he wrote that. By the way, I'm happy to say that our company, St. Augustine's Press, will be publishing the definitive edition of the two-volume set of THE RIVER WAR later this year.

Saintgus


39 posted on 02/09/2006 1:57:11 PM PST by saintgus
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To: Neville72
CHURCHILL PING!
40 posted on 02/09/2006 2:00:19 PM PST by AmericanDave (More COWBELL....................)
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To: Neville72
"No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."

FANCY TALK FOR RETARDED RELIGION

41 posted on 02/09/2006 2:14:15 PM PST by AmericanDave (More COWBELL....................)
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To: Neville72
"No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."

Kinda sez it all - for the 21st Century hip hoppers it means Islam is some Stone Age Shxt!

42 posted on 02/09/2006 2:21:55 PM PST by databoss
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To: Neville72
Thanks

This is worth re-reading periodically.

We need some leaders with vision and balls like this today.

43 posted on 02/09/2006 2:27:08 PM PST by TheClintons-STILLAnti-American (Keep the adults in charge of Congress.)
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To: VOA
Thanks.

I am not to vain to admit that I was 18 when this movie (Khartoum)came out in 1966. I saw it then and always made a point of seeing it whenever it came out on TV. Unfortunately, since that blubber head Ted Turner took over the American Movie Classic (AMC) channel, movies such as this do not show up on the tube anymore. That is why about two years ago, my son gave me the DVD (wide screen edition). He is about the same age now that I was when the movie was released in 1966. We both enjoy it now. The movie was even favorably reviewed at the time by the grandson of the real Mahdi, Mohammed Ahmed despite some minor inaccuracies.
44 posted on 02/10/2006 5:47:07 AM PST by wmileo
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To: wmileo

It was only because of the film "Khartoum" that in the days following 9-11,
that I had a clue when the term "Madhi" came up in the press.
At first I thought, surely the film will get some broadcasts, but then
I came to my senses and remembered that we live in the era of PC censorship.


45 posted on 02/10/2006 7:01:38 AM PST by VOA
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To: VOA

I understand the new DVD can be purchased for a little as $10.09 on
http://www.bestprices.com/cgi-bin/vlink/027616875808IE.html


46 posted on 02/10/2006 7:24:46 AM PST by wmileo
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To: KC Burke
“Kurds and others rightly don't look upon him like we do after a hundred years of western initiated subjugation.”

Cultural inferiority simply is. Islam societies are inferior to western societies because of the reasons Churchill so clearly summed up in the River War.

“Sure, he saw the cultural problems and dangers, but seeing them the western liberal governments froze out the resolutions that were needed and made the problems of today more fixed in stone.”

Consider the English truism, “The Arab is either at your throat or at your feet. Better he be at your feet.”

The Muslim understands clearly, and responds best to, power and vengeance.

Islam Delenda Est.

47 posted on 04/20/2008 12:44:28 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principle)
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To: Neville72; All

I know this is an old thread, but is **this** why Obama returned the Churchill bust to England? Because Churchill was opposed to Islamic tenets?


48 posted on 03/19/2011 9:31:21 AM PDT by getmeouttaPalmBeachCounty_FL (*********************End automatic pay raises for congresscritters**)
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To: getmeouttaPalmBeachCounty_FL; Neville72

Yes an old thread worth viewing for those who haven’t seen it.


49 posted on 03/22/2011 3:48:21 PM PDT by sunny48
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