Skip to comments.Boeing 747-8 vs A380: A titanic tussle
Posted on 02/15/2006 3:43:53 PM PST by Paleo Conservative
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We were trying to catch our cruise ship after missing the sailing out of San Juan.
We go to San Juan, went to the airport and found a small airline going to what ever island (I forget).
A beautiful red head sold me my $99 ticket.
She took my bags and put it on the plane.
Now time to fly, I get on the DC8 and SHE WAS THE PILOT.
We never got above 500 feet. She said we just got new engines and I don't want them to rip out of the wings.
Strange experiences we all have.
Other than no a380 deliveries, I don't know. Do tell...
I went from Nome to Port Clarence on a local carrier...I can't remember who or what type of aircraft now. Small twin engine Cessna or Beechcraft.
While we're waiting and they're weighing us and our bags, we're watching a mechanic working on the plane...pounding on something under the cowling.
He finally wipes his hands off, takes off the coveralls, walks in and asks us if we're ready. He was the pilot. I loved it...my partner was a little less enthused.
Braniff did away with yellow within a couple of years of their "end of the plain plane" ad campaign which began in October 1965. The yellow paint didn't fare too well with all the strong sunlight it got especially on Mexican and South American routes. It was only put on 707's
The 380 has its niche.
The A318/319/320/321 has been killing Boeing.
2005 sales (Air Transport World, Feb 2006, page 9)
and 235 787's
and 20 A380's
Competition is good!
Airbus produced 378 aircraft last year, Boeing produced 290.
Boeing gets its fair share of Government cheese, and a good percentage of their planes are made with foreign parts.
Wrong, there are almost no L1011 cargo planes. As far as planes still flying, ATA has 5 or 6 that they do military charters with, ThaiSky airlines has a couple of old DL planes, and a few scattered carriers have them (Kampuchea Airlines) rotting on ramps in Asia. Most of the old ATA, TWA and DL L1011's have been scrapped.
WWII changed that. Airports everywhere and tremendous strides in aircraft design. Coming out of WWII France wanted to regain his place in the aviation market so they put a lot of time and money into the largest, grandest...and most obsolate flying boats ever built. I wish I could recall the name/model.
Naturally they were grand flops; ending up their days flying caro. I think several of them ended up flying ore in South America.
That's the problem with the 380...they are big. Too big.
That is what they said about the 747.
Like I said, the A380 is a great niche plane, much like the 747SP. Instead of long thin routes, the 380 will prosper on the long heavily travelled routes. It will do very well in Asia and the Middle East. Its not a real plane for North America.
Airbus makes great planes. My airline gets the first A350, hopefully we will take it to Asia where the money is.
Eastern... I used to fly them from DC to Asuncion, Paraguay: 24 hours, with stops in Miami, Panama, Columbia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, and Paraguay, finally.
Competition finally killed this awful route. AA switched it to DC-Miami-Paraguay, or one stop in Brazil. The competition picked up, and there was real service, real price pressure on an otherwise unheard of route. Ironically or not, the exact same thing happened with deregulation in the U.S.
Oh, and when American Air picked up the pieces, they found loads of coke hidden in all kinds of places in the old Eastern airplanes.
Delta was still flying them DFW to Frankfurt as late as 1992.
and the company building them eventually went under.
And Wrong. Although the engine maker took one on the chin.
In the profits war I'm going to put my long term money on Boeing combination of the 7E7/787 and new 747. It's going to be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
I have never seen a L1011 cargo plane.
The L1011 wasn't doomed because of the EA crash. It was doomed because Lockheed had to compete against the DC-10. There was no room for both, and when Airbus came out with the widebody A300 and Boeing came out with the widebody 767 (both of which had 2 engines and a 2 person cockpig), the writing was on the wall for Lockheed.
Lockheed's only jet was the L1011, the Electra did well for a prop (one hell of a plane) but Lockheed missed the boat, they should have made a 2 engine 150 seat plane. When the L1011 was being sold, it was before the oil shock. PSA bought 2 L1011's to fly from San Diego and LA to San Fran, that only lasted about 9 months, the fuel costs were too high.
It was a good plane, but, at the wrong time, and it knocked Lockheed out of the passenger market.
7E7 will be a good plane. Not sure if Boeing will pull off the new 747. They tried to sell the same thing a few years ago and got little interest.
Embraer is the guy to watch out for, the Emb170 and Emb190 are the best plane in the A318/B717 market. 100-110 seats, much more comfortable than a regional jet and fuel stingy.
DL retired their last L1011's about 3 years ago. They used to do Hawaii with them. If you watch "Lost" the wreckage is a DL L1011.
I miss em, I flew on TWA and ATA and BWIA's Lockheeds.
They proposed a much more radical redesign with entirely new less hightly swept supercritical wings, fly-by-wire controls and new engines. This is a much more conservative update. Most of the technology updates for the 747 have been already developed for other programs. The wings have the same structural parts as the 747-400. The engines and avionics upgrades and interiors are borrowed from the 787. The wing tip concepts, landing gear and windows are borrowed from the 777. The wing control surfaces will be redesigned to be simpler and lighter.
Good idea. Keeps development costs down, doesn't stress the manufacturing lines. The product delays with the 380 won't hurt either.
You're thinking of the DC-10/MD-10/MD-11. Only 11 Tristars were ever converted to freighters. Nine additional were converted to gas passers/troop transports for the RAF.
Yes, thanks very much for the clarification.
The best L1011 is the one that Orbital Sciences has. They use it to launch sattelites while in flight. Pretty cool.
In addition to the below, I noticed a warning by India to the EU and Airbus not to criticize India's decision to go with the 787 Dreamliner.
Boeing wins $10 bln Qantas jet order
(Its Boeing, baby! Another $10B that Airbus DOESNT get)
Posted on 12/14/2005 6:46:49 AM PST by Pukin Dog
"The Qantas order will push Boeing further ahead of Airbus in 2005 order numbers. Boeing had 800 orders as of November 30, its Web site showed. Airbus had 494 as of October 31, according to its Web site, but has since won a $10 billion deal to supply 150 single-aisle aircraft to China."
"Airbuss ultra-large-aircraft forecast is consistent, Boeings follows every twist and turn," says Carcaillet.s/b, Carcaillet doesn't have any real criticisms, just abusive rhetoric used as a diversionary tactic, rather than answer the real criticisms of the A380.
They eventually got it right, and as the p-3 the basic structure is still in service, but early problems (crashes caused by wings falling off during flight) with the Electra and dealing with those kept Lockheed out of the first generation of jets. They had nothing to compete with the 707, DC-8 or 880. They tried a comeback with the 1011, but it was an uphill battle because they didn't have a family of planes to offer. If you bought Lockheed, you were going to have to also shop Boeing or Douglas, who could offer package deals with DC-9s or 727s/737s.
As for the comfort of the plane, I had originally liked them when they were new, but the last flight I took on one (1992) was miserable. There was no individual air control for each seat, and cabin air circulation was inadequate for the flight. I never flew Delta transatlantic again.
I'll yield to you on that. I don't know when they stopped flying them; I was going on the last time I personally rode in one.
I had a chance to fly on one for free a few years back on Reeve Aleutian Airlines.
Only problem is, did I really want to go to Adak Alaska? If they flew them to their Russian stops, I probably would have.
I have a buddy that used to fly them cargo around micronesia. He loved it, plus the fact that there really wasn't any other air traffic around.
I think the big blow to Airbus was Boeing's monster 777-300ER twinjet. What a beast. Damn near a 747-400ER with much better operating costs. It really killed the A340, and will rewrite the dynamics of much of long-range passenger travel.
But the next big battle is the 737/A320 replacement. And Boeing needs to get moving fast on that.
Airbus knows it got wrapped up in its own propaganda with the A380, and was caught flatfooted by Boeing with the 787. So it tosses out an A330 derivative (the A350), and uses political muscle and extreme discounting to sell enough to get a production go-ahead. But it seems clear Airbus does not intend to be caught flatfooted again.
I seriously doubt Boeing would develop such a variant. It would require major changes to the wings and other systems on the 747-8I. The whole point of the 747-8 was that it required little development beyond adapting technologies developed for other Boeing programs like the 777 and 787 to the 747. Making a very long ranged variant would require longer and strengthened wings, heavier landing gear, bigger engines, and a strengthened fuselage to carry the additional weight of more fuel. The engines may become available if Boeing builds a 787-10X stretched version. I doubt there would be much benefit to Boeing in spending the other money necessary to build such a long ranged variant of the 747 when there would be very small demand for it.
The 777-200LR shares much of its development costs with the 777-300ER and 777-200F. Those planes will probably be built in 500+ quantities over 10-20 years. It could even be more if some of the additional air force tankers are based on the 777-200F. The 747-8 freighter and intercontinental models are expected to sell 200-400 airframes over the next 20 years. I don't see how a 10,000nm ranged 747 would sell enough copies to make economic sense. Perhaps an even larger stretch of the passenger version with the same range as the 747-8I could be built using common parts, but I would still think it would not have that big a potential market compared to the development costs.
If the 777-200LR were to operate successfully on the LHR-SYD route for several years, Boeing will probably build a long ranged variant of the Y3 twin-engined replacement for the 777-300ER and 747 which will be built of materials used in the 787 and later projects.
I agree, Paleo, your reasoning makes a lot of sense. The 747-8 series derivatives seem to be more suited to freighters and demand is the key. If a customer wanted a -8 variant in sufficient quantity, that would be another story.
Martin's flying boat...only two left
Up north of Vancouver, BC. We watched one come in, then the crew took us out and gave us a tour.
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