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J-UCAS Canceled, But Not for Naught (Socialism Kills Another Military Program)
eDefense ^ | 2/15/06 | Ted McKenna

Posted on 02/20/2006 7:59:06 AM PST by Dont_Tread_On_Me_888

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To: Blueflag
I also flew for Delta, and I have to tell you, today's airliners are some incredible things. I guarantee you, that in that 25 knot crosswind you mentioned, 99% of the time a computer is bringing you down from cruise, from VOR-LOC and APP, down to the runway, and is applying the brakes, hitting the reversers and spoilers, and tuning the radios to Ground, while we just sit back and watch. If you fly a 737-700 series and up, ask a pilot to show you the FMC sometime.
21 posted on 02/20/2006 8:58:46 AM PST by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog; Blueflag

I did functional test in the lab on that autopilot. Killed me thousands of fake passengers :D It is a solid piece of hardware though nowhere near cutting edge in terms or raw horsepower. Most avionics is not due to heavy cert requirements.


22 posted on 02/20/2006 9:02:45 AM PST by TalonDJ
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To: Dont_Tread_On_Me_888

F-117s are OLD and '52s much more so. You can ALWAYS keep around a ton old hardware for the same cost as just a few of the new stuff. This has been true since the dawn of time.


23 posted on 02/20/2006 9:05:39 AM PST by TalonDJ
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To: TalonDJ
It is a straight forward problem akin to auto-land with an autopilot.

Yeah, but not quite. Things are different when both target and targeter are moving in 3 axis. With a runway, or even a moving carrier, you have a predictable or stable bearing to target. In-Flight Refueling requires coordination at a speed I don't see a computer being able to handle soon. Speed is not the problem, but the time it takes to recognize a situation, translate it into a transmittable signal, have that signal recognized on the ground by the pilot, have the pilot put in the correct control input, have that input transmitted back to the aircraft, and finally have the aircraft respond to the ground input before the condition changes.

I think the ground pilot will always be a bit behind the aircraft, just because of the latency factor. My eyes and ass will tell me what to do in the cockpit 100 times faster than anyone on the ground can transmit those messages up to a remote piloted aircraft.

24 posted on 02/20/2006 9:11:12 AM PST by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog
PD --

Yes, please forgive the unintentional insult. Had I known you were a Naval Aviator I would not have used the perjorative 'zoomie' moniker ;-). My father will have me before Captain's Mast for my infraction ... He has often joked that the Navy could land an entire airgroup in front of a USAF plane on final. ;-)

"What makes you think we don't already have that?" <-- thus the reason for the "**IF**" -- meant to imply that we just might, or might not. ;-)

FWIW, I am a multi-million miler, spoiled, pampered Delta multi-year-Platinum (now expired) customer of Delta. I used to frequently bring hot, fresh Cinnabons onto the aircraft for the crew. So if you ever got any hot fresh Cinnabons from a 1st class passenger, it mighta been me. I seldom fly anymore because my customers are now 90% local to the greater Atlanta area. I presume you are retired from Delta -- thanks for the years of great service. The current state of Delta saddens me - as it certainly must you as well.

Thanks for your contributions to the blogosphere.
25 posted on 02/20/2006 9:12:51 AM PST by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: TalonDJ
You can ALWAYS keep around a ton old hardware for the same cost as just a few of the new stuff.

If you factor in inflation, the cost of one F-22 is cheaper than the cost of one F-14 was in 1970. Also, the F-22 is 10 times cheaper to maintain today than a Tomcat was in the early 80s WITHOUT factoring in inflation.

26 posted on 02/20/2006 9:14:25 AM PST by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Dont_Tread_On_Me_888

In response to leftist critics, Lyndon Johnson insisted that we could have both "guns and butter," which was how this budgetary choice was phrased at the time.

Of course, he was wrong. The Great Society effectively built in a long-term guarantee of federal bankruptcy, without doing much of anything to alleviate poverty.


27 posted on 02/20/2006 9:15:19 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Blueflag
Thank you! Never got a bun. I was in the 777.

Anyway, as far as Delta, I think they are getting exactly what they deserve. Stupid leadership and stupid unions add up to a stupid airline. Both sides are to blame, and yeah, I mean the pilots too. The day I became eligible to take the money and run, I did.

If you want to run a profitable airline today, you have Southwest and the great Jet Blue for examples on how to do it.

28 posted on 02/20/2006 9:18:10 AM PST by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Starwolf
In the USAF, the silk scarf crowd rules, and UAVs are a threat to them.

Disagree. The USAF is pushing for UAVs hard. My guess is that J-UCAV wasn't going the direction the USAF thinks it needs - but I would bet majority opinion in the USAF right now is that the F-35 will be the last manned fighter.

Programs get cancelled for lots of reasons. I'll be going to a meeting soon on a program that was grossly oversold, has taken 6 years to make 2 years of progress, and doesn't meet the actual needs of anyone in the field. And at the moment, it isn't flyable still.

Sometimes programs go awry.

29 posted on 02/20/2006 9:26:14 AM PST by Mr Rogers
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To: Pukin Dog
I wasn't on the triple 7's much, unless I went to Orlando. And that was always on a REALLY EARLY AM departure, then an early evening/after 6 PM same-day return. Perhaps one or two transatlantics in biz class on 777s. My then-corporate travel policies usually precluded transcontinental non-stops (I saw SLC a LOT on the way to SFO). Net: not too many hours in type.

Actually I grew to not prefer the 777 due to intrusive and unpleasant turbine noise on climb-out.

Final comment(s) --
(a) it's OK that the FMC plants my 737-800 on LGA runway 4 ... I still want you guys up there in case the wrong breaker trips over the threshold ;-)
(b) sadly, nowadays when I do fly I don't get to chat with the crew, even after the cabin door is open at the gate. I would like to get a briefing on the new FMC. Certainly more advanced than what's in front of me in the Champ.
30 posted on 02/20/2006 9:35:21 AM PST by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: Blueflag; Rokke
Actually I grew to not prefer the 777 due to intrusive and unpleasant turbine noise on climb-out.

See, that is where we differ. To me, the sound coming from a GE-90 is beautiful, all that kinetic energy barely in check behind the cover, the hum of the blades, I just love it.

All newer aircraft have their FMC variations, but essentially they can take you from N1 to touchdown with very help from me. Sometimes, all I got to do was rotate with the yoke, and then it was switches and dials the rest of the way.

I pinged Rokke because he is new to the modern FMC on his big MD-11, and he is in a better position to describe them.

31 posted on 02/20/2006 9:45:06 AM PST by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Mr Rogers
My guess is that J-UCAV wasn't going the direction the USAF thinks it needs

I don't think this is the case.

Regardless of techical issues, this program is our key UAV program. If the money is available, you make improvements to the program. New software, new engine, new whatever, . . . If the money is availble, you just prototype a new model or variant. At some point in the future, UAVs will be a major platform. This program was our developmental program. Since UAVs will play some role in the far off future, or even the major role, then if the money is available, you keep improving the developmental program up until the time full scale production is ripe.

This program is being killed for the reasons I stated--there is no money! The cost of welfare and charity, and the points I made in #14 are the reasons why the program is being killed.

Socialism trumps the defense and security of the USA.

32 posted on 02/20/2006 9:48:18 AM PST by Dont_Tread_On_Me_888 (Bush's #1 priority Africa. #2 priority appease Fox and Mexico . . . USA priority #64.)
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To: Dont_Tread_On_Me_888
I think what Mr Rodgers is trying to tell you, is that there is always money for programs that are working. If that program was on track, making progress and solving problems, I guarantee you that Rummy would find some cash for it. I don't have to tell you that programs like this are committed to producing certain results by a certain time frame. If they don't make it, they are gone. The other thing to consider, is that there are black programs that might have filled the mission requirement for your program, making it obsolete. Happens all the time.
33 posted on 02/20/2006 10:30:04 AM PST by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog
The Seawolf program was "on track, making progress and solving problems" but was canceled at three, and the Raptor program has met tech specs set for it but it being scaled back to a ridiculous level.

Again, money is the problem. The USA is finding it impossible to fund the military and have advanced new tech programs for tomorrow. Social spending is soaring, and it is killing the ability of the USA to fund R&D and advanced weapon systems.

34 posted on 02/20/2006 10:51:55 AM PST by Dont_Tread_On_Me_888 (Bush's #1 priority Africa. #2 priority appease Fox and Mexico . . . USA priority #64.)
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To: Dont_Tread_On_Me_888
Again, perfect example.

How do you know that we didn't develop something that would make Seawolf obsolete? (for the record, I am not making that suggestion) I can tell you that this has happened a number of times with programs that the general public will never hear about. The workers on those programs have to be told something though, don't they? The military has a black budget that is unknown by most of us as to its content. I like it that way, and you should too. I know it sucks when it happens to those working on open programs, but such is life?
35 posted on 02/20/2006 11:42:40 AM PST by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog
How do you know that we didn't develop something that would make Seawolf obsolete?

...only that the Virginia-class attack subs have been variously described as scaled-back Seawolfs (Seawolves? That's kinda like Toronto Maple Leafs, isn't it?) That doesn't suggest that there was a black program, only that the Navy couldn't afford the Seawolf-class SSN's.

OTOH, the original M1 Main Battle Tank was also described as a cheaper MBT-70. It's much more than that now.

36 posted on 02/20/2006 12:31:24 PM PST by Tallguy (When it's a bet between reality and delusion, bet on reality -- Mark Steyn)
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To: Tallguy
There are dozens, if not hundreds of weapon systems that the general public and even large sections of the active military know nothing about.

Even the U-2 and SR-71 platforms were run by the CIA for a long period of time, with a few very select members of the military knowing anything about their existence.
37 posted on 02/20/2006 12:36:38 PM PST by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog

I take your point.


38 posted on 02/20/2006 1:23:25 PM PST by Tallguy (When it's a bet between reality and delusion, bet on reality -- Mark Steyn)
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To: Pukin Dog; Blueflag
Wow, this is an interesting thread. A debatable topic that hasn't digressed into a total food fight. With regard to FMC's and flying big airplanes...they take all the fun and risk out of flying. The FMC in the MD-11 is essentially the same as all the others. It will literally fly the airplane from takeoff to fullstop. And it lands it better and a lot more consistently than I do. Especially in a crosswind. But our policy is that we do all the landings unless the weather is down to "I can't see a damn thing". Soooo, my crosswind landings are getting much better. But I still wish they'd give me my HUD back and let me land in a crab. Anyway, the boxes in the back haven't complained yet.

With regard to UAV's...the technology and capability in this area is moving faster than most development programs. But UCAV's are already flying CAS missions and doing it very well. The only thing about CAS that hasn't changed dramatically in the last 10 years is why we do it. In a complete reversal from a few years ago, the most effective environment to execute a CAS mission is at night. The current state of our avionics and the equipment available in the air and on the ground makes CAS in the dark almost a no-brainer. In a brief summary...the forward air controller (on the ground or in the air) defines the coordinates of the target (using laser range finders and GPS these coordinates can be incredibly precise). He transmits those coordinates to the close air support platform (manned or unmanned). Whoever is flying the aircraft directs his infrared equipped targeting pod at those coordinates and verifies he sees what he is supposed to target. To confirm, he zaps it with an infrared laser beam and asks the controller if he is targeted correctly. Then, with approval to drop, he guides a laser guided bomb onto the target that almost guarantees a kill. We've come a long way...and in the process have greatly reduced the need for an actual person to be in the cockpit of the delivery aircraft. This isn't just theory. It is being performed in practice. And new technology is refining the practice on almost a daily basis. Already, we are able to beam imagery from the orbiting platform directly to the guys on the ground, giving them control of what is being looked at. Obviously, the next step is giving them control of dropping the ordnance.

Which takes us back to canceling this (X-45) program. The reason air to air refueling capability wasn't included in the initial specs was because it didn't seem realistic. But then, neither did a UCAV performing CAS. I suspect that much of the X-45 testing program has been overtaken by other programs. That has happened frequently throughout the history of various X-plane programs. You can be sure if we still had questions or strong interest in the capabilities being tested by the X-45's, the program would still be funded.

39 posted on 02/20/2006 1:28:36 PM PST by Rokke
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To: Dont_Tread_On_Me_888

Correct.
LBJ & Congress did a "guns & butter" policy during the Vietnam War years.
Bush & Congress are doing the same.

It was not sustainable, and the war spending/effort lost back then.

Imagine the Dem's are more fiscal & responsible now, at least enough to not oppose any Repub efforts to trim socialist programs?


40 posted on 02/20/2006 1:49:02 PM PST by OldArmy52 (China & India: Doing jobs Americans don't want to do (manuf., engineering, accounting, etc))
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