Skip to comments.England: The day is coming when British Muslims form a state within a state [Essay? What essay?]
Posted on 03/11/2006 6:27:18 AM PST by snarks_when_bored
ENGLAND: The day is coming when British Muslims form a state within a state
By Alasdair Palmer
The Telegraph Group
February 19, 2006
For the past two weeks, Patrick Sookhdeo has been canvassing the opinions of Muslim clerics in Britain on the row over the cartoons featuring images of Mohammed that were first published in Denmark and then reprinted in several other European countries.
"They think they have won the debate," he says with a sigh. "They believe that the British Government has capitulated to them, because it feared the consequences if it did not.
"The cartoons, you see, have not been published in this country, and the Government has been very critical of those countries in which they were published. To many of the Islamic clerics, that's a clear victory.
"It's confirmation of what they believe to be a familiar pattern: if spokesmen for British Muslims threaten what they call 'adverse consequences' - violence to the rest of us - then the British Government will cave in. I think it is a very dangerous precedent."
Dr Sookhdeo adds that he believes that "in a decade, you will see parts of English cities which are controlled by Muslim clerics and which follow, not the common law, but aspects of Muslim sharia law.
"It is already starting to happen - and unless the Government changes the way it treats the so-called leaders of the Islamic community, it will continue."
For someone with such strong and uncompromising views, Dr Sookhdeo is a surprisingly gentle and easy-going man. He speaks with authority on Islam, as it was his first faith: he was brought up as a Muslim in Guyana, the only English colony in South America, and attended a madrassa there.
"But Islamic instruction was very different in the 1950s, when I was at school," he says. "There was no talk of suicide bombing or indeed of violence of any kind. Islam was very peaceful."
Dr Sookhdeo's family emigrated to England when he was 10. In his early twenties, when he was at university, he converted to Christianity. "I had simply seen it as the white man's religion, the religion of the colonialists and the oppressors - in a very similar way, in fact, to the way that many Muslims see Christianity today.
" Leaving Islam was not easy. According to the literal interpretation of the Koran, the punishment for apostasy is death - and it actually is punished by death in some Middle Eastern states. "It wasn't quite like that here," he says, "although it was traumatic in some ways."
Dr Sookhdeo continued to study Islam, doing a PhD at London University on the religion. He is currently director of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity. He also advises the Army on security issues related to Islam.
Several years ago, Dr Sookhdeo insisted that the next wave of radical Islam in Britain would involve suicide bombings in this country. His prediction was depressingly confirmed on 7/7 last year.
So his claim that, in the next decade, the Muslim community in Britain will not be integrated into mainstream British society, but will isolate itself to a much greater extent, carries weight behind it. Dr Sookhdeo has proved his prescience.
"The Government, and Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, are fundamentally deluded about the nature of Islam," he insists. "Tony Blair unintentionally revealed his ignorance when he said, in an effort to conciliate Muslims, that he had 'read through the Koran twice' and that he kept it by his bedside.
"He thought he was saying something which showed how seriously he took Islam. But most Muslims thought it was a joke, if not an insult. Because, of course, every Muslim knows that you cannot read the Koran through from cover to cover and understand it.
The chapters are not written to be read in that way. Indeed, after the first chapter, the chapters of the Koran are ordered according to their length, not according to their content or chronology: the longest chapters are first, the shorter ones are at the end.
"You need to know which passage was revealed at what period and in what time in order to be able to understand it - you cannot simply read it from beginning to end and expect to learn anything at all.
"That is one reason why it takes so long to be able to read and understand the Koran: the meaning of any part of it depends on a knowledge of its context - a context that is not in the Koran itself."
The Prime Minister's ignorance of Islam, Dr Sookhdeo contends, is of a piece with his unsuccessful attempts to conciliate it. And it does indeed seem as if the Government's policy towards radical Islam is based on the hope that if it makes concessions to its leaders, they will reciprocate and relations between fundamentalist Muslims and Tony Blair's Government will then turn into something resembling an ecumenical prayer meeting.
Dr Sookhdeo nods in vigorous agreement with that. "Yes - and it is a very big mistake. Look at what happened in the 1990s. The security services knew about Abu Hamza and the preachers like him. They knew that London was becoming the centre for Islamic terrorists. The police knew. The Government knew. Yet nothing was done.
"The whole approach towards Muslim militants was based on appeasement. 7/7 proved that that approach does not work - yet it is still being followed. For example, there is a book, The Noble Koran: a New Rendering of its Meaning in English, which is openly available in Muslim bookshops.
"It calls for the killing of Jews and Christians, and it sets out a strategy for killing the infidels and for warfare against them. The Government has done nothing whatever to interfere with the sale of that book.
"Why not? Government ministers have promised to punish religious hatred, to criminalise the glorification of terrorism, yet they do nothing about this book, which blatantly does both."
Perhaps the explanation is just that they do not take it seriously. "I fear that is exactly the problem," says Dr Sookhdeo. "The trouble is that Tony Blair and other ministers see Islam through the prism of their own secular outlook.
They simply do not realise how seriously Muslims take their religion. Islamic clerics regard themselves as locked in mortal combat with secularism.
"For example, one of the fundamental notions of a secular society is the moral importance of freedom, of individual choice. But in Islam, choice is not allowable: there cannot be free choice about whether to choose or reject any of the fundamental aspects of the religion, because they are all divinely ordained. God has laid down the law, and man must obey.
'Islamic clerics do not believe in a society in which Islam is one religion among others in a society ruled by basically non-religious laws. They believe it must be the dominant religion - and it is their aim to achieve this.
"That is why they do not believe in integration. In 1980, the Islamic Council of Europe laid out their strategy for the future - and the fundamental rule was never dilute your presence. That is to say, do not integrate.
"Rather, concentrate Muslim presence in a particular area until you are a majority in that area, so that the institutions of the local community come to reflect Islamic structures. The education system will be Islamic, the shops will serve only halal food, there will be no advertisements showing naked or semi-naked women, and so on."
That plan, says Dr Sookhdeo, is being followed in Britain. "That is why you are seeing areas which are now almost totally Muslim. The next step will be pushing the Government to recognise sharia law for Muslim communities - which will be backed up by the claim that it is "racist" or "Islamophobic" or "violating the rights of Muslims" to deny them sharia law.
"There's already a Sharia Law Council for the UK. The Government has already started making concessions: it has changed the law so that there are sharia-compliant mortgages and sharia pensions.
"Some Muslims are now pressing to be allowed four wives: they say it is part of their religion. They claim that not being allowed four wives is a denial of their religious liberty. There are Muslim men in Britain who marry and divorce three women, then marry a fourth time - and stay married, in sharia law, to all four.
"The more fundamentalist clerics think that it is only a matter of time before they will persuade the Government to concede on the issue of sharia law. Given the Government's record of capitulating, you can see why they believe that."
Dr Sookhdeo's vision of a relentless battle between secular and Islamic Britain seems hard to reconcile with the co-operation that seems to mark the vast majority of the interactions between the two communities.
"Well, it isn't me who says Islam is at war with secularisation," he says. "That's how Islamic clerics describe the situation."
But isn't it true that most Muslims who live in theocratic states want to get out of them as quickly as possible and live in a secular country such as Britain or America? And that most Muslims who come to Britain adopt the values of a liberal, democratic, tolerant society, rather than insisting on the inflexible rules of their religion?
"You have to distinguish between ordinary Muslims and their self-appointed leaders," explains Dr Sookhdeo. "I agree that the best hope for our collective future is that the majority of Muslims who have grown up here have accepted the secular nature of the British state and society, the division between religion and politics, and the importance of allowing people to choose freely how they will live.
"But that is not how most of the clerics talk. And, more significantly, it is not how the 'community leaders' whom the Government has decided represent the Muslim community think either.
"Take, for example, Tariq Ramadan, whom the Government has appointed as an adviser because ministers think he is a 'community leader'. Ramadan sounds, in public, very moderate. But in reality, he has some very extreme views. He attacks liberal Muslims as 'Muslims without Islam'. He is affiliated to the violent and uncompromising Muslim Brotherhood.
"He calls the education in the state schools of the West 'aggression against the Islamic personality of the child'. He has said that 'the Muslim respects the laws of the country only if they do not contradict any Islamic principle'. He has added that 'compromising on principles is a sign of fear and weakness'."
So what's the answer? What should the Government be doing? "First, it should try to engage with the real Muslim majority, not with the self-appointed 'community leaders' who don't actually represent anyone: they have not been elected, and the vast majority of ordinary Muslims have nothing to do with them.
"Second, the Government should say no to faith-based schools, because they are a block to integration. There should be no compromise over education, or over English as the language of education. The policy of political multiculturalism should be reversed.
"The hope was that it would to ensure separate communities would soften at the edges and integrate. But the opposite has in fact happened: Islamic communities have hardened. There is much less integration than there was for the generation that arrived when I did. There will be much less in the future if the present trend continues.
"Finally, the Government should make it absolutely clear: we welcome diversity, we welcome different religions - but all of them have to accept the secular basis of British law and society. That is a non-negotiable condition of being here.
"If the Government does not do all of those things then I fear for the future, because Islamic communities within Britain will form a state within a state. Religion will occupy an ever-larger place in our collective political life. And, speaking as a religious man myself, I fear that outcome."
http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia219.xml Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2006.
Apparently, the Telegraph, which originally published the article, pulled it for "legal reasons". You can follow the link at the bottom of the article and see for yourself.
Muslims are like fire ants. You just can't control them.
Thanks. My search for the title didn't turn up that post.
It seems this thread is a duplicate. Pull it if you deem it pull-worthy!
His remedy of forbidding religious schools would be a blow to Christianity as well as Islam. I don't know the answer to the problem, but government controlled schools for everyone is not it.
The earlier thread does not have the entire article (although it's available via a link.)
Good point. It might not be a bad idea to have the entire article in the FR database. Up to the Mods, of course.
The Australian Foreign Minister's recent comments regarding the Muslims in that country should be the standard for ALL non-muslim countries. "Accept the host country's constitution and all laws or GO HOME!" Should they not choose that option, DEPORTATION is the only remedy.
Excellent article. But is anybody in Great Britain listening? For that matter, is anybody in America listening, besides us?
A lot of what he says makes sense; however, I'm not convinced the steps he's recommending will solve the problem. No doubt, it's the clerics who are the primary voices of this hate but, they do have the theological and historical backing of their source documents.
Given Islam's demands upon its adherents to enslave, convert or kill and ultimately rule any and every area of the planet coexistence doesn't seem possible. In the long run Islam cannot coexist peaceably in the west. It's a festering sore which at some point will have to be dealt with.
Let them have a separate state
Then nuke it
I was thinking of those giant 'wasps from hell' on the National Geographic channel yesterday, but fire ants is better.
You'll probably want to clear your cookies and wash your hands...
I missed the earlier post and appreciated the chance to read it now. The author is ringing the alarm bell for Great Britain, loud and clear. Is anyone over there listening?
"The whole approach towards Muslim militants was based on appeasement. 7/7 proved that that approach does not work - yet it is still being followed."
This article is worth studying carefully, IMHO. It was also posted on 2-19-06, but I did not see any of you there so here is the link.
I missed it then, too, I'm afraid. Thanks.
Even their holy book is stupid. But of course having it arranged that way makes it difficult to understand, or even follow. Thus the need for an Imam or Mullah to tell you what it means. Far too many seem to think it says "Kill the Infidels", which of course it does in a few places, but so does the Old Testament. But you don't see many Rabbis emphasizing that message these days (or anytime, at least since well before the diaspora)
(Note these polls will reflect only those who are brave or stupid enough to admit their thoughts to the kuffar)
THIS IS GOING TO BE THE CONTENDER FOR THE FACE OF "MAINSTREAM ISLAM"
It spreading as we speak.
This is not only happening in England.....WAKE UP AMERICA!
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran . . . should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth."
-CAIR chairman, Omar M. Ahmad (as reported by the San Ramon Valley Herald in July 1998)
It IS happening here USF, step by step, inch by inch ..... and NO ONE is paying attention.
And that is why they cannot be defeated by people who believe in nothing.
Keep up the multi cultural nonsense, and also keep up the fiction that the ancient values of Western Civilization are no more worthy than any others, and you will soon see an end to multi culturalism.
I can't be bothered to look it up, but, as I recall, the koran starts whining about infidels and the need to punish them on the sixth line of the very first book. It skips the silly origins of the universe stuff that the Bible at least tries to get right and goes straight to the infidels-suck-and-we're-gonna-kill-'em stuff.
It worked. They could not go to heaven thus defiled in death.
It doesn't take a religious person to recognize the threat that islam poses. But it does take somebody who'd rather confront a threat than hide from it or deny its existence.
Exactly. That is, one with no real value system at all.
sure you can with ~fire~
England should do what the Germans are looking at doing (posted on an earlier thread), which is looking into outlawing practices in the Koran that voilate the German constitution.
voilate = violate
"This sobering assessment of what England is facing was written by a well-educated, former muslim who converted to Christianity. He's attempting to sound the alarm. . . ."
Thank you for posting this, and thank you for point out
the writer's credentials--impressive credentials.
I'd figured this sort of thing was up the collective Muslim sleeve, but it's interesting to see the precursors documented so well. The Telegraph, wheter they intended to or not, has produced what I think is one of the most important documents of the 21st Century by publishing this (and then pulling it).
Let them have a separate state
Then nuke it"
Queen Elizabeth: Mr. Prime Minister, is there a way to set aside 100 square kilometers for the Muslims, and, once it's set up, drop a thermonuclear device on it and wipe out them
Mr. Blair: Yes, your majesty, it's contained in a white paper entitled "How One Nuclear Device Dropped On Any Part Of Britain Could Wipe Out The Whole Damn Nation."
Queen Elizabeth: Then perhaps I need to re-think this.
Sooner or later, a few clever Western politicians will decide to tap into that growing sentiment in order to gain more power. It's inevitable.
The United States will not retreat from the world, and we will never surrender to evil.
President George W. Bush, SOTU 1-31-06
Anti-contentious terrorists Sarcasm Torpedo ARMED. FIRE!!
Sounds like Swift's A Modest Proposal.
Full Disclosure: And if the Moose-limbs nuke Israel? Similar, no?
We need to stop it. Now.
If were are not allowed to tackle this political movement masquerading as a religion at home, then we are left with few other choices apart from neutralizing it at the source.
I am trying to find the Presidents remarks regarding the islamists trying to form an islamic state from Spain to Indonesia. The map I posted is where islam is already the dominent force, represented by green.
I find this more telling than the article itself.....thanks for the post.
Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.
...the militants believe that controlling one country will rally the Muslim masses, enabling them to overthrow all moderate governments in the region, and establish a radical Islamic empire that spans from Spain to Indonesia. With greater economic and military and political power, the terrorists would be able to advance their stated agenda: to develop weapons of mass destruction, to destroy Israel, to intimidate Europe, to assault the American people, and to blackmail our government into isolation.
Some might be tempted to dismiss these goals as fanatical or extreme. Well, they are fanatical and extreme -- and they should not be dismissed.
Evil men, obsessed with ambition and unburdened by conscience, must be taken very seriously -- and we must stop them before their crimes can multiply.
Over the years these extremists have used a litany of excuses for violence -- the Israeli presence on the West Bank, or the U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia, or the defeat of the Taliban, or the Crusades of a thousand years ago. In fact, we're not facing a set of grievances that can be soothed and addressed. We're facing a radical ideology with inalterable objectives: to enslave whole nations and intimidate the world.
No act of ours invited the rage of the killers -- and no concession, bribe, or act of appeasement would change or limit their plans for murder.
On the contrary: They target nations whose behavior they believe they can change through violence. Against such an enemy, there is only one effective response: We will never back down, never give in, and never accept anything less than complete victory.
Its leaders pretend to be an aggrieved party, representing the powerless against imperial enemies. In truth they have endless ambitions of imperial domination, and they wish to make everyone powerless except themselves.
There's always a temptation, in the middle of a long struggle, to seek the quiet life, to escape the duties and problems of the world, and to hope the enemy grows weary of fanaticism and tired of murder. This would be a pleasant world, but it's not the world we live in.
The enemy is never tired, never sated, never content with yesterday's brutality. This enemy considers every retreat of the civilized world as an invitation to greater violence.
Yes, I saw that thread. It'll be interesting to see whether the Germans can carry that off.
You can control fire ants, you just have to be hard nosed about it.
The answer to the problem is in reply #9.
"Your thoughts on this would be appreciated."
There are grains of truth in the article - though he is scaremongering and pushing it to the boundaries to underline his main point. As long as the Sun is the UKs best selling newspaper we are still a huge leap from tolerating pockets of Sharia law! The main point that resintates with me is that we bend over backwards as a nation to be seen to reinforce the quintessential British notion of 'fairplay' to all comers within our borders. We naively let ourselves down when when we extend that 'fairplay' to people who have no intention to recipricate.
Our government took the wrong line on the Danish cartoons - it may indeed give comfort to those who think they can play us for suckers.
I live in a city (Birmingham) that has a % muslim population that would probably send most freepers into a headspin. This proportion is represented in the staff at my UK office. Most British Muslims live decent, hardworking, tax paying, charitable lives. The problem is there is no getting away from the fact that I also live within two miles of a mosque attended by more than one of the failed (14 July) London Bombers. It gets very difficult not to look at every single person with a tan. an overlong beard, and what look to me to be pyjama's and presume they are hostile to all we stand for.
I think second generation British Muslims are struggling to find an idenitity - most I see go the right way - they get a proper job, they reject the yashmack (though some choose to keep headscarves - most go the full western make-up route). I can also tell you they embrace the British Pub Culture if nor our Bacon Butties! However, there is still this (too big) number who reject the core of their adoptive homelands soul and go down the full ultra-conservative path that lead them to strap on Backpacks and climb on commuter trains. What we need is for the ones who live the 'British' life, to stop having so much fun, and take responsibility in their own community for rejecting the immans - and forcing the point that there is such a thing as a secular muslim and making a show of it. I fear they don't appreciate that these 'moderate' muslims are loosing the PR battle so badly it is difficult for those who don't live in proximity of them to accept they even exisit. In fact I don't think they realise that they aren't even IN the PR Battle.
I've only been to Great Britain once, circa 1993....next time I go I'll ckeck out these "Bacon Butties"......I assume it's edible although to many it might sound....errrr...erotic. Regards.
I do not think he means forbidding faith based other schools but is against muslim state schools being established which some muslims are pushing for.
Most of our junior state schools are Church of England part funded.
I think most people in Britain are aware of the problem but really do not know what to do about it.
bacon sandwiches made with crispy hot bacon, I also like fried onions in mine.
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