Christians protest attack on churches [Pakistan]

dailytimes ^ | April 07, 2006

[ncountylee]

MULTAN: Christians on Sunday protested against the desecration of the Holy Bible and arson attacks on their places of worship in various parts of the country, terming the incidents ‘religious terrorism’.

Special services were held for those who had died in various incidents of violence against minorities.

“It is religious terrorism to set our church (in Mian Channu) ablaze during the period when we (Christians) fast. It is an attack on our religion and belief. We feel unsafe and insecure,” said Chaudhry Naveed Amer Jeeva, MPA and the coordinator of All Pakistan Minorities Alliance, South Punjab.

He said that the present regime had failed to protect churches, missionary properties and religious leaders. He said that churches had been burnt down in Sargodha and Sukkur, more than 300 copies of holy Bible were set ablaze in Sangla Hill and the cross desecrated and Christians killed in terrorist activities.

“We are peaceful people but we will not let anyone disrupt peace and make ‘Shanti Nagar’ (a Christian village near Khanewal district) a ‘Matam Nagar’. Minorities are not ‘Zimmis’ but are part of the mainstream because they took part in the Pakistan Movement,” said Fr James Chanan, the director of Pastoral Institute and United Religions Intiative Asia (URIA). Jeeva and Chanan demanded that an independent and high-powered commission be formed to pinpoint the responsibility for incidents of violence and the culprits be taken to task. They said that if the government failed to meet their demands, they would be forced to secure their places of worship and protect their religious scholars.

[NYer]

Catholic Ping - Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

[Blzbba]

So much for our 'wonderful Paki allies in the WOT'.

[newgeezer]

"...We feel unsafe and insecure." ... He said that the present regime had failed to protect churches, missionary properties and religious leaders.

Seems he might be looking to the wrong authority for safety and security.

[starfish923]

Christians constitute only about 1% of Pakistan.

They are, and have been since the Partition in 1947, unwanted people. They can't, by law, hold very high places in government or business. There are all sorts of anti-Christian laws like that. It's not against only the Christians. Hindus and any other religious minority are treated like that. No surprise.

They are an oppressed minority, but this isn't news to anyone in Pakistan, the Muslim world or the middle/near East. It's only new to those who know nothing about Pakistan or its neighbors.

Pakistan broke from Indian ONLY, ONLY because Indians wanted to form their own MUSLIM nation. They did in 1947. Christians KNEW that then. It would be like Christians, Hindus or Sikhs moving to Saudi Arabia and then complaining about the Muslim laws against them. FOOLISH!

Solution for the Christian Pakistanis? Get outta Dodge.
Many have. I have no sympathy for those who stay. It's like whites complaining about racism in South Africa. HANDWRITING ON WALL. Get outta Dodge or quicherbitchin.

[CarrotAndStick]

Many have.

Most Pakistani Hindus and Christians have been converted to Islam by of force, intimidation or threat. In Pakistan, positions of power are reserved for Muslims. By law.

And just like the Taliban, they too must be acted upon. To change.

Not doing so will only encourage their expansionist mindset. The mindset that makes them lust to see the entire world under the flag of Islam.

[paguch]

I can hardly wait to start tabulating the number of Muslims and Imams who speak out against this intolerance. We in the U.S. had better keep track of who we are admitting to our country. It is comming here.

[starfish923]

Most Pakistani Hindus and Christians have been converted to Islam by of force, intimidation or threat. In Pakistan, positions of power are reserved for Muslims. By law. And just like the Taliban, they too must be acted upon. To change. Not doing so will only encourage their expansionist mindset. The mindset that makes them lust to see the entire world under the flag of Islam.

Act on what? Act on a country that was founded ONLY for Islam? Why get on their case? It's not like it was or in any SURPRISE to non-Muslims. No one is forced to stay in Pakistan. Pakistan has never forced anyone to stay there. People CAN always move. Why try to change a country that is 99.9% one religion? It's senseless and useless....FOOLISH.

I think those non-Muslims who stay in Pakistan have no case to complain. It's like whites in South Africa staying there and enduring the racism. They CAN leave. Canada and Australia welcome them. We have many white South Africans here.
I don't have sympathy for those who stay and just complain. GET OUTTA DODGE.

There aren't any Hindus in Pakistan, except for the odd visitor. Hindus KNOW that they aren't welcome there. They stay in India, THEIR home.

By the way, India persecutes Christians and they have done so ever since there were Christians there. Do you advocate "action" there too?
The Indian-Christian poster, SOLDIEROFCHRIST, will tell you ALL ABOUT the anti-Christianity in India.

[CarrotAndStick]

There aren't any Hindus in Pakistan, except for the odd visitor.

Pakistan has a million-plus Hindu population, whose ancestors have been living in that part of the world for eons. Their homeland, that is.

By the way, India persecutes Christians and they have done so ever since there were Christians there. Do you advocate "action" there too?

The Indian-Christian poster, SOLDIEROFCHRIST, will tell you ALL ABOUT the anti-Christianity in India.

Read my previous comment carefully. Do you see the phrase,'By Law' there? Not the case in India.

Barring the once-in-a-while incident against Christians in India, there is no discrimination of Christians BY INDIAN LAW in India.

And the suffering of India's Hindu community, the ones who've emigrated from Kashmir to other parts of India, cannot be compared in the least, to the situations a FEW Christians have faced in India.

It is foolishly idiotic to equate the fate of Christians in Pakistan with those in India. And you know it.

[MILESJESU]

Dear Freepers in Christ,

First of all, I would like to state for the record that there is no once in a while incident against Christians in India as mentioned by Freeper CarrotandStick.

Catholic, Baptist, and Pentecostal Churches are regularly set on fire or attacked in a number of states all across India specially in the States ruled By the Party associated with Extremist Hindus.

In fact, there is breaking news on Yahoo about an unjust Anti- Conversion Law that was passed in the State of Rajasthan earlier today.

The Situation is getting from bad to worse for all Christians as well as Catholics in India. There is no once in a while incident taking place in India.

Christians are persecuted on a daily basis in a number of States in India. For example never since 1947, Has a Catholic Bishop or Bishops been stoned in India.

But since October 2005, there have been numerous incidents of stoning of Catholic Missionaries in various parts of India.

Bishop Thomas Dabre-- The Auxiliary Catholic Bishop for the Archdiocese of Mumbai was stoned by a large mob of Extremist Hindus on the 29th of January 2006 resulting in injuries to him and to 3 of his priests. All this Happened on the outskirts of Bombay.

In All these Decades and Years-- Never has a Catholic Bishop from Bombay been attacked or in any State in India but now it has happened.
In October 2005, in a 2 week period the Catholic Bishop of Udaipur was stoned twice while he was proceeding to inaugurate a Eucharistic Procession to mark the end of the Year of the Eucharist in that Diocese.

Catholic Nuns and Priests continue to be assaulted on a Daily, weekly, or monthly basis in various parts of India.

The sad fact is that these incidents are not published or recorded by Law Enforcement Authorities. Any one who denies the fact about Anti - Christian Persecution in India is in my book a Supporter and Sympathizer of Extremist Hindu Groups in India.

To make matters worse, even Catholics and Christians who are not Missionaries are harassed on a daily basis or attacked.

This has all been recorded by Compass Direct in a coherent manner.

Finally, it needs to be stated here that there have been gruesome attacks on Christians and Catholics for a number of years dating back to the 1960's. It has only worsened tremendously in the last 10-15 years.

I guess I need to start some threads on the Persecution of Indian Christians as well as the discrimination they face.

Some Freepers seem to be in denial about any kind of persecution or harassment of Christians in India.

The Year 2005 was a Year of Immense Violence for Catholics and other Christians in India. 400 Incidents of attacks on Christians were recorded. If you all do not believe me or are harboring doubts about what I am saying I will post the links to these articles asap.

Again, I wish to repeat that Persecution of Christians and Catholics in India are not random attacks as some Indians are trying to make it to appear to be. It is a well coordinated series of attacks by various Extremist Hindu Groups which is getting out of hand and has already assumed a serious character in various States in India.

In Christ,

[CarrotAndStick]

Ping.

[Gengis Khan]

"Indians wanted to form their own MUSLIM nation"

What? Muslim nation?

"Solution for the Christian Pakistanis? Get outta Dodge.
Many have. I have no sympathy for those who stay. It's like whites complaining about racism in South Africa. HANDWRITING ON WALL. Get outta Dodge or quicherbitchin."

One question.....
Where will they go? Who is going to let them in? You?

[Gengis Khan]

When Pakistan was created it had close to 40% Hindus (plus Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists and Parsees). BTW dont forget east Pakistan. Pakistan neverhad 99.9% Muslims any time in history except for today. The politics of persecution made it so.

Only 30 years ago my own family were among the Hindus stranded in Islamic (East) Pakistan. We managed to escape genocide in 1971 by fleeing to India as refugees. That should be good according to you.... but tell me why should we or anybody flee the land that has always been ours. How long should anybody keep fleeing from their heart and homes for foreign lands?

[starfish923]

"Indians wanted to form their own MUSLIM nation"
What? Muslim nation?
Read your history. Before 1947 all of the area WAS Indian, both Hindu and Muslim Indians. There was NO Bangladesh or Pakistan.
Therefore, those Muslim INDIANS who wanted to form their own MUSLIM country advocated heavily.
They did get their own country, called PAKISTAN, which, as you know, means "Land of the pure."

"Solution for the Christian Pakistanis? Get outta Dodge. Many have. I have no sympathy for those who stay. It's like whites complaining about racism in South Africa. HANDWRITING ON WALL. Get outta Dodge or quicherbitchin."
One question..... Where will they go? Who is going to let them in? You?
I only know this information through eye-witness version from Christian Pakistanis. They DO come here. I know of a family that immigrated piece-meal.
The second youngest daughter went to school in the Midwest, from Pakistan, married an American. They have lived in California for at least three decades.
The eldest daughter then immigrated here, married an American and lived in Atlanta until she passed away.
The only son (who I met in the middle east) moved here about 10 years ago. He lives in New York.
The youngest daughter stayed in Pakistan and continued the usual anti-Christian news from Pakistan. Her children went to school in Atlanta. When they both graduated, their parents began the process of immigrating here.
They KNEW that they did have to get outta Dodge.

Pakistans OFTEN immigrate to the U.K., America and Canada. It's not difficult for them at all to leave the "Land of the pure," especially to the aforementioned countries.

They can also move across the border to India, though most don't because India doesn't want Christians either and practice MUCH religious persecution of Christians....as the Indian Christian SOLDIEROFCHRIST says over and over and over and over again.

[starfish923]

When Pakistan was created it had close to 40% Hindus (plus Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists and Parsees). BTW dont forget east Pakistan. Pakistan neverhad 99.9% Muslims any time in history except for today. The politics of persecution made it so.
Only 30 years ago my own family were among the Hindus stranded in Islamic (East) Pakistan. We managed to escape genocide in 1971 by fleeing to India as refugees. That should be good according to you.... but tell me why should we or anybody flee the land that has always been ours. How long should anybody keep fleeing from their heart and homes for foreign lands?

I'm sorry that your family was persecuted. No one deserves that. Why should anyone leave? Well, your attitude reflects some people who will obstinantly stay in a place where they face persecution, slavery, hardship, racism, bigotry....and all, and INSIST that the 99% majority cater to the 1%. Lol. You wouldn't have been from those who "get outta Dodge" and think of the future for their children.
Thus, you wouldn't have been an American. My family left France because of the French Revolution and then left Mexico because of the interminable Mexican Revolution. That's just ONE side of the family. My family left the ravages of Europe, for a new and better life here.

There are those whites in South Africa who simply WON'T leave, despite the grim, hopeless future they face. S.A. has lost almost 2 million young whites who emigrated because they saw the hopelessness of a future for whites in their own country. Their parents hang on, watching the black, VASTLY numberically superior black South African government take over white land, farms, homes, businesses, etc., and gripe, moan, groan and beat their heads against the walll -- obstinately STAYING where they were born....just angry, bitter, enraged, pissed off, ticked off, frustrated and ready to engage in battle daily.
MOST humans don't want to live like that. They do. Apparently you might be like them....stay and fight a losing battle, rather than move on to a newer and better life elsewhere.

I know all this from the perspective of an Indian Christian family who were eye-witnesses to the massacres of Muslim versus Indian in those horrible days of religious civil war. When the country parititioned there were Hindus in Pakistan and Muslims in India. The poorest, who even knew what was going to occur, couldn't move so readily and were "stuck" in where they were born....that went for BOTH Muslims and Hindus, as you also know well.

The millions who died were BOTH Hindus and Muslims, as BOTH groups were in BOTH countries. The atrocities were committed by BOTH groups, as well YOU know.

East Pakistan, now Bangladesh, was created as the EASTERN "land of the pure," that is, a Muslim nation. Whether the split-in-two Bengali province could or could not maintain its own as "East Pakistan" with BOTH Hindus and Muslims was never a "given." It was obvious to many that religion was going to be more important than the 3500 year old history, language, culture and tradition of BENGAL. So, East Pakistan didn't stay "united" with West Pakistan and got their own independence from West Pakistan....and become BANGLADESH.

I don't know why you keep trying to make me the bad guy, anti-Hindu and such. You must have an enormous chip on your shoulder. I never placed any blame on either side because I know that both sides had both good and bad guys, which is human nature...but perhaps you insist on blaming ONLY one side and those who don't take YOUR side are therefore racists, bigots, etc.

Interesting that you have taken the name of the Mongolian Monster who conquered India and RAVAGED India and Hindus with impunity. Gengis Khan was PARTICULARLY mean and vicious because he would ride into a village, kill, rape, pillage, loot and burn ALL he could....then RETURN a few days later to kill those who had managed to hide. They write that he never bothered to take slaves....they slowed him and his army down. He couldn't kill everyone in the larger towns, so he merely subjegated them....horribly.

And the name "Khan" is so typically Pakistani, that is, Muslim...and you a Hindu. Very odd to my thinking.
Why not take the name of a Bengali HINDU hero? The Bengali language is, I've heard, a very musical, lyrical and beautiful language, admired by most of India. I've HEARD the language a little and it SOUNDS beautiful, but then I like hearing Gaelic, Italian and French. Now I even like the sound of German, as I have been learning it.

[starfish923]

It is foolishly idiotic to equate the fate of Christians in Pakistan with those in India. And you know it.

No, I don't know it.
Preach your babble to SOLDIEROFCHRIST, an Indian Christian. He's currently living the persecution of Christians in India.

[CarrotAndStick]

So are Voice of India. And sukhoi-30mki. I'd rather rely on them for information.

[CarrotAndStick]

No, I don't know it.

So you believe Christians in India have as bad a deal as Christians in Pakistan?

[starfish923]

You never did explain why you have such an ANTI-HINDU, Muslim-Khan name. :o)
Perhaps you are part of the squash kingdom of Khan. No, they are Muslim and Pakistani.
Not easy to read pro-Hindu things coming from a man named GENGIS KHAN. Really.

[Gengis Khan]

Interesting that you have taken the name of the Mongolian Monster who conquered India and RAVAGED India and Hindus with impunity. Gengis Khan was PARTICULARLY mean and vicious because he would ride into a village, kill, rape, pillage, loot and burn ALL he could....then RETURN a few days later to kill those who had managed to hide. They write that he never bothered to take slaves....they slowed him and his army down. He couldn't kill everyone in the larger towns, so he merely subjegated them....horribly.

And the name "Khan" is so typically Pakistani, that is, Muslim...and you a Hindu. Very odd to my thinking.
Why not take the name of a Bengali HINDU hero? The Bengali language is, I've heard, a very musical, lyrical and beautiful language, admired by most of India. I've HEARD the language a little and it SOUNDS beautiful, but then I like hearing Gaelic, Italian and French. Now I even like the sound of German, as I have been learning it.

 I wanted to respond to your reply on one earlier thread but didn't find the time. Firstly your history is false and highly biased which is very much evident in more than one places but that later.

Re-read history...........

1. Gengis Khan never invaded India. Babur was the Turk-Mongol invader who conquered Northern India.

2. Gengis Khan was not a Muslim. On the contrary he devastated Islamic Empires from Bukhara (Khawrazmia) to Baghdad (Khalif).

3. The name "Khan" is neither Pakistan nor India  (assuming you consider India and Pakistan as culturally different)......... Its Turkish. Gengis Khan was called Gengis Khan or Jengihz Khan by the Turks his worst enemy. Gengis Khan's real name is Yesuhgei. Indians and Pakistanis call him Changez Khan or Jungez Khan.

BTW any famous Bengali Hindu you know of ? And please dont tell me "Nirad Chaudhari".

I don't know why you keep trying to make me the bad guy, anti-Hindu and such.

Why would I want to do that? In any case being a pro-Hindu on this forum is almost as bad as being a pro-Muslim.