The Judas We Never Knew

Christianity Today ^ | 04/06/2006 | Collin Hansen

[Scotswife]

"There were many accounts written by Jesus"

whoops!

That should say "about Jesus" not "by Jesus"

[cookcounty]

"The Gospels of Mathew and John were not written by the apostles Mathew and John."

You know this because you have some arhuments tahat prove the negative, or because you pretty much believe what your interesting (and liberal) teacher tells you?

[familyop]

...sorry, but I really don't know and am continuing study. IMO, if we study (including history of our beliefs) and do so with some courage, we'll eventually find the truth. Some people are satisfied with more faith, and others of us want a more concrete way.

[edcoil]

Christianity is about Christ, not Judas.

[cookcounty]

"That's true about all of the gospels, my friend. They were all written at a minimum decades after the events they purport to chronicle.

Then, they were "finalized" by Constantine, and he was a politician.

Well that's incorrect. I think you've been reading "The Gospel According to Dan Brown," and his definitely a fraudulent "Gospel." The Gospels were very very widely circulated, quoted and commented upon long before Conatantine.

[ChiefBoatswain]

The fact that the gospels were written long after the fact, and that they were "edited" by Constantine was well known before Brown's novel.

[Scotswife]

" The Gospels were very very widely circulated, quoted and commented upon long before Conatantine."

Amen.
Constantine was a pagan - the son of a christian mother.
It is said he managed to convert on his deathbed...maybe.

Constantine made it legal to be a christian. Up until that point being a christian was punishable by death.

He also called a council in an attempt to force the leaders of the Church to come to agreement on some issues.
There were leaders of the Church long before Constantine - and the emperor recognized their authority.

It is laughable to see someone claim that Constantine had anything to do with the canon.
The scriptures were circulating long long before Constantine.

[SkyDancer]

Someone once told me that Christianity today is like a very old scratchy record ... the scratches coming from all the writing and rewriting of the Bible, the copyists putting in all those margin notes over the ages .... but the true believer can still hear the Master's voice even still over all that noise ... I'm remembered of the dog on those old Victrola's you see in the antique stores listening to his master's voice ... he "Knows" his Masters voice ....

No amount of "new evidence" about Jesus and Judas and Mary Magdalene and whoever or whatever can ever shake my basic belief in my Saviour ....

And as Beretta says "That's the name of that tune" ....

Regards,
jane

[TASMANIANRED]

Recycled heresy.

[spunkets]

" The Gospels of Mathew and John were not written by the apostles Mathew and John."

The Gospel of John was written by John. This was never disputed until the late 19th century. The motivation for the claim that John was not the author was, because of the strength of the text's claim for the divinity of Jesus. This is a Gospel with no historical doubt of authorship within the Church.

Matthew likewise authored Matthew. That is in the record. the text contains other elements from the Gospel's of Mark and Luke, but that does not detract from the fact that Matthew was known to have an author of this Gospel.

link

[toolbreaker]

Thank you for your reply. But you jump ahead of my question, I'm afraid. You speak in terms of "the Christians" believed...but I would more expect you to declare yourself as one or not.
Myself, I am one who questions anything I have not seen with my own eyes. I have been to many churches and I still question the authority of those who profess to know the intention and interpretation of the writings of our human history.
If these texts are not "Christian writings", does that disqualify them from consideration as human history?

[GarySpFc]

Firstly, from Matthew’s point of view, the blood that was spilled belonged to Jesus. For that reason, the high priests called the thirty silver coins “blood money” (Matt. 27:6). But notice that whereas Matthew writes for a Jewish audience, Luke addresses Gentile Christians. Hence, the accounts of Matthew and Luke are not at variance. Matthew and Luke are like two news reporters describing an event from different perspectives for different audiences.

But either he acquired it, or the priests did. It's not really possible to read a joint venture acquisition there.

Oh, it’s very possible if you are familiar with Jewish law. The “apparent” discrepancy in the two accounts as to the disposition of the money may be thus explained: “It was not lawful to take into the temple treasury, for the purchase of sacred things, money that had been unlawfully gained. In such case the Jewish law provided that the money was to be restored to the donor, and, if he insisted on giving it that he should be induced to spend it for something for the public wealth. By a fiction of law the money was still considered to be Judas’s, and to have been applied by him in the purchase of the well-known ‘potter’s field’” (Edersheim, Life of Jesus, ii, 575).

And then he either hung himself or fell HEADFIRST splitting open his guts. Give me a scenario where a hanged man falls headfirst either before or after death.

“Falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines spilled out.” Even though Luke omits the information that Judas hanged himself (Matt. 27:5), we can infer that Judas’s falling down headlong resulted from being suspended. The rope could have broke due to the sudden stress caused by a falling body or eventually was cut by someone. The possibility is not remote that, while falling, Judas’s body struck a sharp object that caused it to burst open.

It is important to note the field is located in the Valley of Hinnon, and there are cliffs around the area. It is my opinion the body decomposed over time and fell to the ground bursting open, and with the neck broken the head fell and rolled further down the hill. Anyone finding the body would have viewed it as headfirst.

[MHT]

I don't think they ever claimed that Judas wrote it himself.

[GarySpFc]

Not that far off, with the finding of the document 7Q5, Mark the first Gospel, is now considered by many scholars to have been written as early as 42 A.D.
Matthew was written anywhere from 50 to 80 A.D.
Luke had to have been written prior to Acts, and with no mention of Paul's death that means it was likely completed by 62 A.D.
John penned his Gospel around 90 A.D.

[toolbreaker]

This is why I have a hard time with religious studies. Why the hell is this relevant to anything!

One can argue whether or not a decomposing corpse might fall headfirst or not. Is that a worthy discussion?

[manwiththehands]

"First off, none of the Gospels were written by apostles. The earliest of Mathew Mark Luke and John was written at least 70 years after Christs death. None of them knew Christ."

I don't know where you get your information, but in most Christian churches it is regarded as fact that the Gospels are historically accurate documents, and are accounts of actual events witnessed by the authors themselves.

[El Gato]

If Judas had not fulfilled his role in the affair, had not betrayed Jesus, then Jesus would not have been crucified, would not have risen, and there would be no Christianity today . Jesus himself knew he would be betrayed, and was OK with it, was he not? It's not that much of a leap to believe that Judas was acting at Jesus' behest, unknown to the other disciples, who told the story as they saw it. The only logical question is how Judas story "got out", if as the others reported, he had died at his own hand?

[El Gato]

And within days of the "Jesus walked on ice" story.

My reaction to that was something to the effect of "so?". For the wierd conditions to exist, just when needed, is just as miraculous as walking on liquid water. It's also more consistent with the way The Creator does things these days.

This is the sort of thing President Bush was referring to in his first inagural address when he said:

" After the Declaration of Independence was signed, Virginia statesman John Page wrote to Thomas Jefferson: ``We know the race is not to the swift nor the battle to the strong. Do you not think an angel rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm?''

Much time has passed since Jefferson arrived for his inauguration. The years and changes accumulate. But the themes of this day he would know: our nation's grand story of courage and its simple dream of dignity.

We are not this story's author, who fills time and eternity with his purpose. Yet his purpose is achieved in our duty, and our duty is fulfilled in service to one another.

Never tiring, never yielding, never finishing, we renew that purpose today, to make our country more just and generous, to affirm the dignity of our lives and every life.

This work continues. This story goes on. And an angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm.

[Raycpa]

Are you kidding me? Do you think early Christians had access to all the writings so they could compare? How many of them could even read?

They certainly did have methods of comparing notes and understandings as described by Acts. Jesus often used the phrase "it is written". He expected his audience to cross check his words.

The Jerusalem Council

Acts 6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.

[sirchtruth]

They both got their accounts from heresay evidence and
wrote accordingly. It's hardly surprising that the
accounts differ.

Alright, so what? It still does not negate
the different stories are just different events...
You're looking at this as though there must be
only ONE perspective and I'm trying to convience
you that is a total mistake to make with scripture.
The bible is the inspired word of God there are no
errors or contradictions in the "original."

The reason I so vehemently disagree with your argument
is because every letter, every name, ever jot, and tittle
have been put there by design, just like the universe,
and everything God created.

I always point this out to people who want to discover
what this design leads too and one of the best examples
I can point too is Genesis 5.

Do you know what each name means in the geneology?

Adam - Man
Seth - Appointed
Enosh - Mortal
Kenan - Sorrow;
Mahalalel - The Blessed God
Jared - Shall come down
Enoch - Teaching
Methuselah - His death shall bring
Lamech - The Despairing
Noah - Rest, or comfort.

Put their meanings together and tell me what you find.