Posted on 05/01/2006 10:43:03 PM PDT by FairOpinion
FARS, please stop pinging me on what seems to be every post in your flame war on this thread. Thank you
"Until then I'll be here with facts about your masjesty."
You can't present the facts because you don't know them. All you seem to know, and what you harp on, is about 2 sentences from a CIA file concerning 1953. And that Carter didn't technically "overthrow" the Shah.
The rest that you spout is subjective hatred of the Shah, which you've never explained.
All of which has little to do with his son trying to organize an overthrow of the current regime, which is the subject of this thread.
As for what happened in Iran in 1978-'79, here's a timely (yet hypothetical) analogy :
Mexicans in Texas start to rally and protest against the Texas state gov't and the Governor. It's starts as hundreds and builds to a couple thousand. That's all. The regular police are able to take care of the crowds with some help from local Nat'l Guardsmen when the crowds get larger and out of hand.
The majority of TX citizens are going to work and going on with their everyday lives.
Then, the Mexican government decides that they like the idea of Mexicans taking over the Texas governorship and state government, so they start covertly sending in more people who are highly trained and skilled at fomenting trouble, and they start soliciting for more people to join the crowds. They go to the poor & unemployed and pay them to be at the demonstrations, and solicit liberal univ. students to join them.
Now the crowds are really swelling into the tens of thousands and it's too much for the Governor to handle himself, so he calls the President and asks for more help.
The majority of TX citizens are getting concerned, but going to work and going on with their everyday lives, assuming that help will come and get things back to normal.
The President, who doesn't like the TX governor, and thinks a change of Governorship is a good idea, not only refuses to send in more National Guardsmen, but gives the TX Governor bad advice on how to help calm the demonstrating masses and meet some of their demands. The Governor follows the advice and the situation worsens. He appeals to the President again, who tells him that the situation is out of control and the best thing to do is to leave. By this time, the Governor, who is ill and diagnosed with cancer, decides he can't fight anymore, and he leaves. The Mexican population puts their own guy in power and takes over the government.
Now that's a very simplified version of what happened in Iran, but analogous nonetheless.
So, here are the questions:
Did the Texas people overthrow the Governor? (you're always saying the Iranian people overthrew the Shah)
Did the President's refusal to help, cause the overthrow of the Governor? (you're always saying that Carter didn't cause the overthrow of the Shah)
You live in a fantasy world if you believe that anyone other than the iranians threw the shah out. That is an inescapable fact and no 'what-if' scenarios will make it go away. Must suck to have to create imagined comparisons since the truth is a leg upon which your platform cannot stand. Have a nice day.
Ha Ha Ha.
You claim to have been a cop, (NYPD, I believe), so you should understand exactly what I was describing in my analogy.
I described to you very simply, what happened.
You refused to answer the questions I posed, because if you did, you'd have to recognize what the situation really was, something you never knew or allowed yourself to realize before. That would mean recognizing that Carter was indeed an integral part in the Shah's overthrow. And that the majority of the Iranian people were NOT behind the rent-a-mobs and communists.
At least now, anyone reading this thread can decide for themselves how Carter and the Soviets figured into the overthrow of the Shah and get a clearer understanding of what happened. (though the situation at the time was more complicated than described here)
Fortunately, your posts won't weigh very heavily.
Thanks for the opportunity to educate others.
Have a nice day.
Acknowledged.
And so his strategy is to announce it so they have time to prepare? Good grief.
Based on what I've seen lately, they deserve to be insulted.
You don't know what he's doing or why. But he knows what he's doing.
"he" who?
? Reza Pahlavi. That's who you were writing about in #147
Most people have not read the novel, The Ugly American, so they often use this allusion incorrectly. The "ugly American" in the novel was the good guy. He had an ugly face but was in manner and action everything Americans can be proud of.
As I said, I hope the CIA, State, DoD, etc. are working this problem of leadership, power structure vacuum if the mullahs are removed.
methinks they have sold their souls to a lower authority and Karl Marx and Islam are his running dogs.
Sorry, I thought you were refering to my post about insulting the Iranians. It's been a long day.
No problem. I should have posted a quote from your comment so you knew what I was referencing.
My impression from the times was that the Soviets instigated and backed the return of Koheimeni.
That the President of the United States did not adequately respond to this chess move by the Soviets for hegemony of the region shows the utter lack of geopolitical savvy by President Carter, or an underlying bias favoring communist hegemony and disapproving American hegemony.
If President Carter had backed the Shah, the Shah would not have been overthrown.
Compare the recent communist May Day demonstrations by unlawful aliens in our country. Worldwide communism/socialism today takes a disaffected group and organizes them and uses them to further the goals of worldwide communism/socialism. That is what happened in Iran.
That is what is happening here in the U.S. now.
Carter was the worst POTUS of the last century but his lack of action doesn't change the fact that the shah was a small "d" despot who we installed, was our puppet and whom ruled through an abusive and murderous secret police, and that there was a large enough ground-swell of active, in the street opposition to send him packing.
As for the global communist threat, my old man was FBI in the late forties and early fifties. I grew up with dinner table discussions on the reality of those scumbags.
Ah, the Shah was a small d despot, but he was our despot.
And compared to most of the rulers in that area of the world he was a very enlightened fellow.
The question you have to think about honestly is if a nondespot could have governed that country and brought about modernization at that time?
And whether it is possible for Iran even now or Iraq even now to have a democratic government and nondespot ruler without Pax Americana.
"Ugly American" Novel.
You are so right - but it sounded so appropriate I could not resist.
Incidentally you have a good strategic mind. With the right information details you'd come up with worthwhile practical solutions.
I am having to make adjustments of emphasis, with outside of FR context, based on your comments as I clearly slid over some important concerns that I had addressed but not clearly enough.
cheers,
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