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Defending science education against intelligent design: a call to action
American Society for Clinical Investigation ^ | 01 May 2006 | Alan D. Attie, Elliot Sober, Ronald L. Numbers, etc.

Posted on 05/03/2006 8:23:06 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

We review here the current political landscape and our own efforts to address the attempts to undermine science education in Wisconsin. To mount an effective response, expertise in evolutionary biology and in the history of the public controversy is useful but not essential. However, entering the fray requires a minimal tool kit of information. Here, we summarize some of the scientific and legal history of this issue and list a series of actions that scientists can take to help facilitate good science education and an improved atmosphere for the scientific enterprise nationally. Finally, we provide some model legislation that has been introduced in Wisconsin to strengthen the teaching of science.

The past decade has seen breathtaking progress in evolutionary biology, thanks largely to the fruits of genome sequencing projects. The molecular footprints linking all life on the planet are now fleshed out in rich detail, and we possess a chronometer of molecular evolution going all the way back to early bacteria. This has sparked a renaissance of interest in speciation, development, and evolutionary aspects of disease susceptibility and resistance. The importance of evolution to biology was properly summarized by White House Science Adviser John Marburger when he said, "Evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology. Period. What else can you say?" (1).

In a parallel universe, a majority of Americans, 54%, do not believe human beings evolved, according to one poll (2). Only 38% agree with the statement, "human beings evolved from an earlier species" (3). Opposition to evolutionary theory has existed since Darwin. Efforts to eradicate or dilute the teaching of evolution persist throughout the nation despite consistent rejection in the courts. Conservative think tanks, religious fundamentalists, and influential magazines such as National Review continue their attempts to introduce pseudo-science into science classrooms. This movement has gained the support of such prominent politicians as President George W. Bush, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, and Senator John McCain. Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, a onetime biology major, said, "our school systems teach the children they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized out of some primordial soup of mud" (4). Even the definition of science itself has fallen victim to political attack; the state board of education in Kansas decided that the supernatural may now be taught as science in the classroom. Some have claimed that the challenge to evolution is symptomatic of a broader, more generic attack on science itself (5).

Scientists can no longer afford to let these challenges go unopposed. The wide gap between established facts accepted by scientists and the sentiments sampled in the polls reflects a failure of science education. For this, scientists, particularly those in academia, must take some responsibility. The remedies are educational and political and must involve scientists and non-scientists. Instituting an effective response does not require large blocks of time, nor need it involve debates with creationists: small actions can have large effects.

The road to Dover.

In 1968, the US Supreme Court unanimously ruled that an Arkansas law banning the teaching of evolution violated the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution. The Court ruled that the Arkansas law had a religious purpose — namely, to oppose teachings perceived to conflict with the biblical story of creation. Following this defeat, opponents of evolution adopted two strategies. First, they advocated the teaching of creationism as an alternative scientific explanation, along with evolution. Second, they began to adopt scientific jargon to give creationism a veneer of science. Two states, Arkansas and Louisiana, passed laws mandating this "balanced" treatment of evolution and creationism.

This set the stage for the Arkansas trial of 1982 (McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education), which was almost entirely focused on the question "Is creationism science?" Judge William R. Overton stated in his opinion (6) that creationism fails to be a science because it fails to satisfy the following requirements: "(a) it is guided by natural law; (b) it has to be explanatory by reference to natural law; (c) it is testable against the empirical world; (d) its conclusions are tentative, i.e. are not necessarily the final word; and (e) it is falsifiable."

The issue returned to the Supreme Court in 1986–1987. The Court ruled 7–2 in Edwards v. Aguillard that Louisiana’s law calling for the balanced treatment of evolution ("evolution-science" and "creation-science") violated the First Amendment "because it lacks a clear secular purpose" and it "impermissibly endorses religion by advancing the religious belief that a supernatural being created humankind" (7).

The creationists once again mutated and adapted. After the Edwards ruling, they set about removing references to God and creationism from their tracts. For example, as revealed at the Dover trial (8), the authors of the intelligent design (ID) text Of pandas and people: the central question of biological origins stripped the direct mentions of creationism present in early drafts of the text and systematically substituted the novel term "intelligent design" (9).

The evolution of creationism.

ID is the contemporary version of an argument that has a long history. It was given a succinct formulation by William Paley in the early 19th century. Modern defenders of the design argument contend that living things are too complex to have evolved by the process of natural selection; rather, their "irreducible complexity" is convincing evidence of the hand of an intelligent designer. ID theory’s contemporary advocates, who include Lehigh University biochemistry professor Michael Behe, cite complex systems such as the blood-clotting cascade, the flagellar motor, and the human eye to argue that because these systems would be nonfunctional if even a single component part were excised, they could not have evolved by mutation/natural selection and therefore must have been "intelligently designed." The argument can be boiled down to this: complexity is itself evidence of a designer. In its current version, ID conveniently omits mention of God.

However, ID is not a scientific theory. The premise for the arguments of Behe and other ID proponents is deeply flawed, scientifically and philosophically. Behe assumes that the component parts of irreducibly complex systems never had other functions in older organisms. This is contradicted by scientific evidence. The Dover trial transcripts are illuminating (see "The Dover trial") (8). Under oath, Behe was forced to concede that there are organisms that lack some of the mammalian clotting proteins. Proteins that are present in the flagellar motor have orthologs that are involved in unrelated functions. A recent elegant example of proteins acquiring a new function within a complex system can be seen in a structure that functioned in respiration in fish and later evolved to be part of the mammalian inner ear (10).

ID makes no testable predictions. There is nothing in this concept that allows for scientific investigation of the "designer." It is simply an argument by default; the failure to explain something is said to lend credence to a supernatural explanation. The attempt to promote this as science is deeply misguided. In spite of uncounted hundreds of thousands of scientific studies published in the last 50 years, there are still demonstrable gaps in what we know about the evolution of life on this planet. However, those studies tell us a great deal about how life came to be as it is and now form the foundation of modern biology. ID, by contrast, has produced nothing.

The Discovery Institute.

The engine behind the ID movement is the Discovery Institute, founded in 1990 by Bruce K. Chapman. Today, the institute receives more than $4 million per year from numerous foundations, most with religious missions. The center’s objectives are outlined in its "Wedge Strategy," which was leaked and posted on the Internet (11). The document states that the Discovery Institute "seeks nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies" and "to replace materialistic explanations with theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God." Its goals are to see ID theory as the dominant perspective in science; to see design theory applied in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics, and cosmology in the natural sciences and ethics, politics, theology, and philosophy in the humanities; to see its influence in the fine arts; and to see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral, and political life.

The Dover decision.

In Dover, Pennsylvania, 2005, 11 parents sued to reverse a school board requirement that the following statement be read to students: "because Darwin’s Theory is a theory, it continues to be tested as new evidence is discovered. The Theory is not a fact. Gaps in the Theory exist for which there is no evidence. A theory is defined as a well-tested explanation that unifies a broad range of observations" (Kitzmiller et al. v. Dover Area School District) (12). The required statement referred only to evolution. The third paragraph in the statement read: "Intelligent design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin’s view. The reference book, Of pandas and people (9), is available for students who might be interested in gaining an understanding of what intelligent design actually involves."

In his decision, Judge John E. Jones stated that ID is essentially Paley’s argument for the existence of God, with God left unmentioned. In short, ID is a religious doctrine. He noted that Behe "claims that the plausibility argument for ID depends upon the extent to which one believes in the existence of God"; thus, "ID is a religious and not a scientific proposition." He characterized ID as "nothing less than the progeny of creationism." Jones stated that the Dover school statement forces a "false duality" on students by making them choose between God/ID and atheism/science and "singles out the theory of evolution for special treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist text as though it were a science resource, and instructs students to forego scientific inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction elsewhere."

The Dover case was an important victory for science education. Judge Jones wrote a strongly worded, carefully crafted opinion that should guide future litigation (12). The transcripts of the Dover trial constitute an excellent educational resource, rich in testimony about the nature of science, the evidence for evolution, and the history of deceit in the creationism/ID movement.

The "teach the controversy" hoax.

The ID movement employs a tactic that appeals to the American tradition of "fairness and balance." ID advocates argue that since there is a controversy over evolution, we should "teach the controversy" in public school science classrooms.

The "controversy" is manufactured. Evolutionary biology draws strength from a supporting scientific literature extending across 150 years that includes literally hundreds of thousands of individual papers. Creationists offer no science. In some cases, they have misrepresented science in their efforts to debunk it. For example, in Of pandas and people (9), evolutionary lineages are presented as straight lines linking species, rather than as parts of a tree structure. The incorrect linear model is then used to argue that cytochrome c homology patterns do not conform to evolutionary predictions.

The "just a theory" hoax.

Creationists purposefully confuse the two meanings of the word "theory." In common usage, a theory connotes a statement that is tentative or hypothetical. This is the meaning implied in the frequent claim of ID advocates that evolution is "just a theory." However, science uses the term "theory" differently. When substantiated to the degree that evolutionary theory has been, a theory is regarded as a fact. Practicing biologists operate within the rich context of evolutionary theory, and no part of modern biology, including medicine (13), is completely understandable without it. Scientific arguments are not qualified with clauses that allow for a nonevolutionary scenario.

The "fair and balanced" hoax.

In the name of "fairness and balance," the media have decided to present "two sides" of this story. For example, a day after the Dover decision, National Public Radio aired a commentary by a Heritage Foundation fellow comparing ID to the Big Bang Theory, predicting that eventually it will be widely accepted by scientists (14). By giving uncritical treatment to "both sides," the media convey to the public the false impression that this is a genuine scientific controversy and that each has a substantial body of evidence and convincing argumentation. Journalists should be mindful of the fact that no science supports creationism/ID; 150 years of biological, geological, and physical science supports the modern synthesis of Darwin’s theory. The individuals with scientific credentials who support ideas such as ID actually constitute a rather small group, as recently described in a New York Times article (15).

The "persecuted scientist against the establishment" hoax.

Another plea often articulated by ID proponents is the idea that there is a community of ID scientists undergoing persecution by the science establishment for their revolutionary scientific ideas. A search through PubMed fails to find evidence of their scholarship within the peer-reviewed scientific literature. In the original Wedge document, a key part of the plan to displace evolutionary biology was a program of experimental science and publication of the results. That step has evidently been skipped.

The constant, unanswered assault on evolution is harmful to science and science education. ID and its progeny rely on supernatural explanations of natural phenomena. Yet all of science education and practice rests on the principle that phenomena can be explained only by natural, reproducible, testable forces. Teaching our students otherwise disables the very critical thinking they must have in order to be scientists and is a fundamental distortion of the scientific process. ID is therefore not simply an assault on evolution: it is an assault on science itself.

ID groups have threatened and isolated high school science teachers. Well-organized curricular challenges to local school boards place teachers in the difficult position of arguing against their employers. We have spoken with high school science teachers who feel censored in their efforts to teach the basic principles of science. The legal challenges to local school districts are costly and divert scarce funds away from education into court battles. Although these court battles result in the defeat of ID, they are draining and divisive to local schools.

Finally, the assault on evolution and science threatens our nation’s scientific and technological leadership. Political and economic agendas are interfering with the free flow of scientific information. For example, political appointees have ordered scientists at NASA to eliminate references to the Big Bang Theory and to cease to mention the eventual death of the sun billions of years from now in their comments and publications. Other scientists have been cautioned about speaking out on global warming. These actions disrupt the long-standing tradition of public policy based on the consensus of the scientific community.

[snip]

There is a wide range of actions that each scientist can take to facilitate good science education. Our experience has shown repeatedly that every action carries weight and represents a very productive use of time. Some of these require little time; some require a more substantial commitment.

Educate yourself.

A few hours with publications available on the websites of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, or the National Center for Science Education can help clarify the issues and provide the preparation needed for an effective scientific response to challenges (see Table 1). The decision rendered by Judge Jones in the Dover decision is a particularly excellent resource and is well worth reading in its entirety.

Write letters.

Write to legislators and newspapers. Write to school boards considering actions that might undermine science education. Write to government leaders. Respond to comments made by ID proponents wherever they might appear. The letters need not be long, and even one letter every few months will have a large effect. This is an activity that can and should fit into the schedule of every working scientist. Similarly, call in to talk shows featuring pro- or antiscience guests. Every letter written by authors of this paper has elicited a positive response. The ID program consists entirely of public relations efforts. They have had this playing field to themselves for too long.

Organize campus evolution groups.

This provides an informal way to husband campus resources in evolutionary biology. Seminar series are useful. Regular meetings to plan special events such as Darwin Day celebrations can serve as outreach exercises.

Organize educational support teams.

Scientists can be a compelling resource for teachers in K–12 science programs who are facing pressure from school boards or parents to alter good science curricula in ways that harm students. If a group of such scientists can be organized, individuals need not face unreasonable demands on time, and the group as a whole can provide valuable assistance to educators within the scientists’ state.

Participate in outreach activities.

Go to local schools and talk to classes about science in general and evolution in particular. Go to school board meetings when appropriate and talk to school board members. Talk to local business groups.

Organize educational sessions at national and international meetings.

Major scientific professional societies should embark on a concerted educational effort, directed both at educating scientists about the problem and arming them for an effective response. Resources also must be made available for science teachers at the K–12 levels. Travel grants, where available, should be concentrated on K–12 teachers to make attendance possible.

Revise textbooks.

Scientists engaged in textbook writing should be more cognizant of the need to educate future scientists and science teachers about evolutionary biology. Additional education is required to explain what science is, what defines a scientist, and how the various forms of the scientific method constitute a consistent whole.

Become more effective lobbyists for legislation that improves the atmosphere for science and science funding.

We urge scientists in all 50 states to work with their respective legislatures to enact legislation similar to the bill just introduced in the Wisconsin Legislature. This movement should appeal to a widely shared interest to uphold the standards of science education and should transcend political ideology.

Make yourself available at least occasionally as a local resource.

Creationists are not deterred by the Dover case. There are troubling situations brewing in almost every state. Scientists should use these new cases as teaching opportunities in their own classrooms and should be willing to testify and support the cause of science education in the courtroom.

Teach.

For academic scientists, there is no greater responsibility than the education of our citizenry, and there is no activity that has a greater impact. For too long, educational programs in biology at the college level have neglected to provide a solid grounding in evolutionary biology, despite its central importance. This background has been left to unstandardized mentions in core courses and to upper-level specialized courses that are often not required. A nationwide overhaul of these programs is essential. New introductory courses are needed to provide a background in evolutionary biology at the very beginning of all programs leading to science or science education degrees, and the courses should be required. New lower-level courses for nonmajors, pitched at a level appropriate for students with minimal science background, are needed to expose as many citizens as possible to evolutionary theory and to introduce them to science.

Work with your legislators.

Identify legislators who are friends of science and work with them, as we have in Wisconsin, to introduce legislation that supports and strengthens science education.

Work with clergy.

As Judge Jones indicated, the creationists have fostered a false duality between science and religion. A majority of people do not hold a literal young-earth interpretation of the Bible. The clerical community has a shared interest in keeping science and religion apart. They do not want religion to be presented as science and, like a large block of religious scientists, do not see any conflict between religious belief and evolutionary theory.

Whether in crafting a tax code, making health care decisions, evaluating the economy, exploring the resolution of world conflicts, evidence-based thinking is the best intellectual tool in our possession. In science, controversies are usually temporary. When scientists have divergent hypotheses, they usually agree on the key experiments that will favor one hypothesis over others. This is because there is a consensus that framing questions in a way that is subject to the test of evidence is the most progressive way to advance knowledge and understanding. In an ideal world, such principles ought to be widely embraced. Students should learn the difference between hard evidence and speculation. They should understand the elements of logic and clear, critical thinking. They need to understand how to suspend belief while gathering and evaluating evidence.

As George Orwell observed, "a mere training in . . . sciences . . . is no guarantee of a humane or skeptical outlook." Yet Orwell advocated universal science education if such an education was structured to focus on "acquiring a method — a method that can be used on any problem that one meets — and not simply piling up a lot of facts" (18).

Within universities, the cultural gap between the sciences and the humanities needs to be bridged. A useful approach is to create courses in critical thinking that combine science and the humanities. Ideally, such courses would include an exploration of contemporary problems from the combined perspectives of the sciences and the humanities, united in the common theme of evidence-based, critical thinking. Given that our universities play a large role in the training of the next generation of government and corporate leadership, investing in a future better guided by evidence-based, critical thinking is the most important investment we can make.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; pavlovian; puppetmasters; scienceeducation; usualsuspects; yomommaisanape
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To: andysandmikesmom
Ok, I'll stop. lol

About Abbott and Costello; I grew up watching them too, every Saturday a local channel would play one or two of their movies, and since we had one TV at the time and only no cable, I usually watched them. My favorite was Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein.

That reminds me; later on Saturdays another channel would play the most dreadful kung fu movies, with guys climbing walls and floating in the air, and with horrible dubbing. One guy always sounded like Cary Grant, and would say something like (in Cary Grant type voice), "Hey you! Your Kung Fu is not bad! Mr. Lee wants to see you. Judy Judy Judy."

Ok, that was not EXACTLY what they said, but you get the picture. Just bloody awful.

And I watched every one and ate em up. lol To be 10 again... :)
901 posted on 05/07/2006 3:18:15 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: Doctor Stochastic

I had to look that one up...got the meaning...along the way, I found a nifty website with grand pictures of Italy, the California coast, and inter alia, many wondrous sights...thanks...


902 posted on 05/07/2006 3:23:03 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Indeed, being 10, during the 50s was wonderful...

We always went to the movies on Saturdays...it was a full day event...first came the coming attractions....then came a number of cartoons, then came the latest episode in the serial, either Buck Rogers, or some other serial, and then the selected short, which often was one of the Bowery Boys(Dead End Kids)..loved Huntz Hall and Leo Gorcey...then we settled in for not just one, but two, yes two, full length shows...we were at the movies from late morning, until early evening, with our friends, eating bunches of popcorn, and candy, and pop, and having such a grand old time...

It was indeed, a wonderful era to grow up in...


903 posted on 05/07/2006 3:27:22 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: PatrickHenry

You have indeed, listed most of the mantras...I cant think of much you missed...how long will it take, before we hear someone actually seriously assert such stuff?...not long, I reckon...

It all does more appropriately belong in the ELIZA mode...


904 posted on 05/07/2006 3:31:43 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: andysandmikesmom
"and then the selected short, which often was one of the Bowery Boys(Dead End Kids)..loved Huntz Hall and Leo Gorcey..."

I remember them! Their stuff was usually came on after Abbott and Costello. My father tells me my grandmother always got a big kick out of them, which is funny for me, since I hardly remember her laughing much. I remember then in their first movie, Dead End, with Humphrey Bogart as the heavy. It wasn't comedy at all. It's odd home they evolved into such goofballs.

"we were at the movies from late morning, until early evening, with our friends, eating bunches of popcorn, and candy, and pop, and having such a grand old time..."

I wish I could have experienced that. I grew up in the 70's and 80's. I did get to go to drive in movies though; I saw Star Wars that way. I was stuck in the 3rd seat of a station wagon, and I really didn't follow it that well. It wasn't really until they started appearing on TV that I understood the plot.
905 posted on 05/07/2006 3:39:50 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: PatrickHenry

I humans were made from dirt, why is there still dirt?


906 posted on 05/07/2006 3:53:37 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Yes, its so that in that movie Deadend, that is where the deadend kids or the Bowery Boys, as they came to be known later, first started out...and Humphrey Bogart was so great as the really, really bad guy...I think Joel McCrea played the good guy...it was really an odd little movie, not at all a humorous movie, but somehow those Deadend kids turned out to be funny in their later selected short movies...

Yes, going to the movies in the 50s was quite the experience...I grew up in Chicago...there was two big movie theatres within a few blocks walking distance from our house...we would get the newspaper on Friday, and see what the lineups would be for Saturday, at both movie theatres...then we would have to decide who had the better lineup for that weekend, and we would all to go that show...I had a brother, and two boy cousins who lived downstairs of me, so all four of us would always go together..we all got a vote as to which movie theatre we were going to and majority won..I never remember us having a tie vote...we always went together, per our parents requests..I guess, altho they did not worry about us like todays parents have to worry about their children, still our parents thought there was some bit of safety in numbers, so they insisted that all 4 of us went together to the movies...we usually always met up with neighborhood friends, or friends from school, so in addition to watching the flicks, we just had fun being together...

One of the movie theatres, even had a live show, in between the two main films...it was called 'Uncle Bob and His Lucky Stars'...but thats a story for another post...suffice it to say, we kids felt that Saturdays were the best day ever...films, cartoon, friends, stomach churning foods, and no school...what more could a kid wish for?


907 posted on 05/07/2006 3:53:39 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: Doctor Stochastic
I[f] humans were made from dirt, why is there still dirt?

If you eat a banana, why are there still bananas?

908 posted on 05/07/2006 4:04:05 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: PatrickHenry

"If you eat a banana, why are there still bananas?"

Better yet, if we came from monkeys, why are there still bananas?


909 posted on 05/07/2006 4:09:09 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
It has been my experience as both a scientist (registered professional geologist with over 20 years experience) and a part-time high school science teacher that the real threats to science in education are MTV, video games, drugs, parent apathy, a culture of ignorance, the NEA, blatant liberal bias in textbooks, and student disinterest. Beyond that, bureaucrats with liberal agendas in agencies like EPA, NOAA, and Fish and Wildlife are doing incalculable harm to science daily by forcing real scientists to reach, or at least espouse, conclusions that are based on philosophy and not scientific endeavor.

By contrast, I've never seen any threat to the science of geology caused by ID OR creationism, however misguided any of their efforts have been.

It strikes me as very odd that real threats to science, and there many more than I've listed, aren't raising near the furor that ID is. Why not spend your time and effort tackling the far more serious threats? Your assertion that "education is under attack", presumably by proponents of ID, ignores the far more serious ways that education has been rendered almost useless by a know-nothing, incompetent generation of bureaucrats.

Finally, since we find religious practice is and has been nearly ubiquitous in human cultures throughout history, it is obviously a product of the evolutionary process. Have you considered the ramifications of manipulating evolution in such a way that this aspect of it is put at risk? Doesn't that mean that you're "playing god"?
910 posted on 05/07/2006 4:10:59 PM PDT by Konacoast
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To: Konacoast
"It has been my experience as both a scientist (registered professional geologist with over 20 years experience) and a part-time high school science teacher that the real threats to science in education are MTV, video games, drugs, parent apathy, a culture of ignorance, the NEA, blatant liberal bias in textbooks, and student disinterest."

Those things are all valid concerns; I don't see why people should sit by and let yet another attack on science go unchallenged because it's not the only attack. The problem is important for the Republican party as well, as it does them no good to be seen as the party of anti-science Luddites. ID/creationism is a loser at the polls. The more the Republican's become associated with it, the easier it will be for the Dims to get elected.

"By contrast, I've never seen any threat to the science of geology caused by ID OR creationism, however misguided any of their efforts have been."

It teaches students that evidence is not needed and that supernatural explanations are as valid as empirical data. Science is the greatest methodology that humans have for gaining knowledge about the physical world. ID weakens that and promotes sloppy reasoning.

"Finally, since we find religious practice is and has been nearly ubiquitous in human cultures throughout history, it is obviously a product of the evolutionary process."

Maybe yes, maybe no.

"Have you considered the ramifications of manipulating evolution in such a way that this aspect of it is put at risk? "

Evolution isn't atheistic, so what ramifications are you talking about? Not teaching ID/creationism is not an attack on religion.

"Doesn't that mean that you're "playing god"?"

No.
911 posted on 05/07/2006 4:24:19 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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Comment #912 Removed by Moderator

Comment #913 Removed by Moderator

To: Konacoast
I've never seen any threat to the science of geology caused by ID OR creationism, however misguided any of their efforts have been.

You have a better union?

It has been my experience as both a scientist (registered professional geologist with over 20 years experience)

It has been my experience as ... a scientist (registered professional archaeologist with over 35 years experience) that those of us who follow the evidence and support the theory of evolution are under attack by a small but vociferous group whose religious belief runs counter to scientific findings.

Finally, since we find religious practice is and has been nearly ubiquitous in human cultures throughout history, it is obviously a product of the evolutionary process. Have you considered the ramifications of manipulating evolution in such a way that this aspect of it is put at risk? Doesn't that mean that you're "playing god"?

Who is "manipulating evolution"? Scientists are following where the data leads. Religious believers have the answers already, and are trying to manipulate science so that it conforms to their beliefs.

Are you comfortable with that? I am not.

914 posted on 05/07/2006 8:24:16 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death--Heinlein)
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To: HappyFeet
Why are there still monkeys?

I've asked same question, but evolution has no answer.

You are still ignoring my long and detail answer to this exact question [with "apes" instead of "monkeys"]:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1625993/posts?page=795#795

just upthread.

Did you not read it?

Or did you not agree with it? (You posted no rebuttal.)

I would enjoy debating the issue with you, but you have to address the issue, not just engage in drive-by-postings.

915 posted on 05/07/2006 8:35:19 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death--Heinlein)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Who is on first.

George: Condi! Nice to see you. What's happening?

Condi: Sir, I have the report here about the new leader of China.

George: Great. Lay it on me.

Condi: Hu is the new leader of China.
George: That's what I want to know.
Condi: That's what I'm telling you.
George: That's what I'm asking you. Who is the new leader of China?
Condi: Yes.
George: I mean the fellow's name.
Condi: Hu.
George: The guy in China.
Condi: Hu.
George: The new leader of China.
Condi: Hu.
George: The Chinaman!
Condi: Hu is leading China.
George: Now whatcha asking me for?

George: Will you or will you not tell me the name of the new leader of China?
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Yassir? Yassir Arafat is in China? I thought he was in the Middle East!
Condi: That's correct.
George: Then who is in China?
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Yassir is in China?
Condi: No, sir.
George: Then who is?
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Yassir?
Condi: No, sir.
George: Look, Condi. I need to know the name of the new leader of China. Get me the Secretary General of the U.N. on the phone.
Condi: Kofi?
George: No, thanks.
Condi: You want Kofi?
George: No.
Condi: You don't want Kofi.
George: No. But now that you mention it, I could use a glass of milk. And then get me the U.N.
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Not Yassir! The guy at the U.N. !


916 posted on 05/08/2006 2:38:36 AM PDT by dread78645 (Evolution. A dying theory since 1859.)
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To: PatrickHenry
If you eat a banana, why are there still bananas?

And what does that have to do with Roman numerals?

917 posted on 05/08/2006 2:42:25 AM PDT by dread78645 (Evolution. A dying theory since 1859.)
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To: PatrickHenry

"Even the definition of science itself has fallen victim to political attack; the state board of education in Kansas decided that the supernatural may now be taught as science in the classroom." (This is a key statement that indicates that the writer is locked into an empiricist/naturalist/materialist worldview and philosophy. This statement has NOTHING to do with science. CE)

"Judge William R. Overton stated in his opinion (6) that creationism fails to be a science because it fails to satisfy the following requirements: "(a) it is guided by natural law; (b) it has to be explanatory by reference to natural law; (c) it is testable against the empirical world; ..." (This shows that the judge in McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education imposed his personal philosophy of science on the law. Again - these are NOT scientific statements. They are statements of philosophy. CE)

"...premise for the arguments of Behe and other ID proponents is deeply flawed, scientifically and philosophically" (Again, philosophy intrudes - this time explicitly. This author is saying that if you do not agree with his PHILOSOPHICAL VIEW that your view is not "scientific" and by implication false or untrue. CE)

..."seeks nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies" ( I see... and this is a problem for science? How does this have anything to do with science? Is "materialism" - which is a philosophy with theological content - a mandatory assumption of science? Has science assumed a materialistic worldview - or have they offered proof? There CANNOT BE ANY scientific proof of materialism since it is not a subject that can be examined by experimentation or observation. To demand that science be materialistic is in itself ... UNSCIENTIFIC. CE)

"...a key part of the plan to displace evolutionary biology was a program of experimental science and publication of the results. That step has evidently been skipped." ( I see. And how would any such research be published when they are excluded from scientific journals by the dominant prejudicial attitude of the editors and hounded from their jobs by Darwinist fanatics - remember the Smithsonian debacle? CE)

"We have spoken with high school science teachers who feel censored..." (Feel censored? Supporters of ID ARE CENSORED with the heavy hand of the law in addition to the persecution from Darwinists on the school boards an in the academic establishment! CE)

"Finally, the assault on evolution and science threatens our nation's scientific and technological leadership. Political and economic agendas are interfering with the free flow of scientific information. ... Other scientists have been cautioned about speaking out on global warming." (Right... like human cloning. And is "global warming" a scientifically proven fact? I think not. There is a great deal of controversy in scientific fields involving human ethics and human activity. These guys want to force everyone to accept a monolithic "consensus" imposed by themselves and their Darwinist/humanist/atheist/logical positivist friends. CE)

"A majority of people do not hold a literal young-earth interpretation of the Bible." (STRAW MAN! Neither do proponents of ID. CE)

"a mere training in . . . sciences . . . is no guarantee of a humane or skeptical outlook." (... and how is a "humane and skeptical outlook" a goal of science? Should it be? Why? This is a political/philosophical/religious position or world view. Science has nothing to say about it. What does this have to do with science? CE)

The agenda of these people is as plain as it can possibly be. They are not advocating science. They are advocating a philosophy and a religious worldview. They are the 21st century version of the Inquisition.


918 posted on 05/08/2006 3:22:08 AM PDT by CloseEncounters
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To: CloseEncounters
"They are the 21st century version of the Inquisition."

Now who is fear-mongering? Who was it that paid for the Inquisition, was it not the 'government', and who is paying for Darwinism, 'government'!
919 posted on 05/08/2006 3:26:55 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: dread78645
And what does that have to do with Roman numerals?

The mere mention of Roman numerals is enough to get this thread thrown into the backroom.

920 posted on 05/08/2006 4:00:11 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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