[TigersEye]

I don't believe that the fedgov should be in education OR business. But at this point, that is pie in the sky theory stuff.

It is hardly "pie in the sky theory stuff" as your own comments (which I will quote in a moment) attest to. The fedgov is neck-deep in education and its engineering of business through volumes of regulations, tax funded bailouts and international agreements and treaties should be plain enough.

We can damn FDR or LBJ all we want, but their choices (and the choices of those generations in electing them) have consequences that have left us in the situation we are in today.

Right there is where you give tacit admission that you don't believe it is "pie in the sky theory stuff." The fedgov has been busy since long before FDR meddling in things the Constitution gives them no authority to touch. You can take the Rokke approach and reply something like "show me exactly where the fedgov wrote and signed a document saying "we are meddling in business against the Constitution" and dismiss the whole idea with that strawman if you like.

So how do you propose we create "free markets" today without help from the fedgov?

That is the point of having individual liberty and freedom. No one needs to create a free market a free market will exist whereever a producer and a consumer agree to do business with each other.

And just because the fed gov has a vested interest in max profits, max trade and max use of human capital as they see it—does that mean that we are required to participate?

Firstly I would complain that the fedgov has no business or authority to have any vested interest in those things. It is simply supposed to keep the peace so that individuals can do what they do.

Ultimately no one has to participate at all. Most people want to produce and, at some level, have to consume. If the government sets up regulations backed by law that govern how you produce and how you consume you pretty much have to participate if you want to do either.

For example; you cannot grow tobacco unless you have the right permit and grow it where the fedgov says you can. The American Spirit Tobacco Co. tried that. They wanted to have American Indians grow some of their tobacco on Indian land in the west and market it as such which would have benefited a struggling tribal economy and the company. The fedgov said "no dice." That's not my idea of a free market.

[pollyannaish]

We have no arguments in principle. I prefer a rather Libertarian approach to a lot of things. But it is not that way things are...but rather the way things ought to be. In addition, most Americans disagree with us at this time. They vote too and because we live in a democracy we are all tied together for better or for worse. Because of that, I do not believe we can suddenly get back there from here. Therefore, we have to deal with the reality of the mess we have made and try to improve it. Those are our choices...make some progress or make no progress. Period.

(I also thing a strictly libertarian approach has downsides as well, but that is an argument for another day.)

What has been proposed by many on this thread is not a libertarian market model, but rather a protectionist market model. A "we need no one other than ourselves" approach to being American. I fundamentally opposed to that, and despite the oft misunderstood quote from Jefferson (I think) about avoiding international entanglements, I believe our founding fathers never intended that either.

In many ways, technology has brought us here. It has created situations and opportunities that our founding fathers never dreamed of. We deal with them the best (hopefully) we can. Is free trade a perfect solution. No. Will it fix all that is wrong with the world. No. Is it an attempt to give American companies access to the rest of the world without being punished for being "American?" Yes. Will it help us eventually carry less of the burden of Mexico...Maybe. But it may be our best hope.

Like I said, I completely agree with you in principle. But we can't get there from here without starting somewhere. Even then it will be a long, hard slog with a lot of set backs. That's ok. I'm a patient...girl. ; ).

As an aside, I have a much greater frustration with the fedgov's meddling in national companies than I have with them creating international trade treaties.