Posted on 05/23/2006 1:58:25 PM PDT by NYer
I am on my way out right now, I'll respond to your other points later. What you need to remember is that I don't believe the Bible to be 100% accurate as God's word. We disagree on that. But I DO like these two chapters..and they are not the only ones.
Again, the reason I posted them is not to justify homosexual or any behavior but to highlight the passages that God is Love and the prime importance of love expressed in those two chapters.
Perhaps you can understand that we come from such wildly divergent places in our belief systems that it is a challenge to find things that we can agree on and that I am trying to use your language even though it is not mine.
I'm on my way out too and don't know if I will be back online this evening or not. Will catch up later with you if need be..but wanted to address this one issue with you before signing off.
When you say that you don't believe the Bible to be 100% accurate as God's word, but turn around and say I like these passages and a few others, that's a classic case of having your cake and eating it too, IMO. I can only pray one day that you will accept all of Scripture and stop attacking it as being inaccurate. I have a feeling that won't happen as long as you continue to be homosexual. I have found that apologists for the homosexual community often attack Scripture as being inaccurate. I suppose it's a self defense mechanism because once you admit that Sacred Scripture is COMPLETELY accurate, you can't justify being an active homosexual.
Welcome back. You were missed.
How do you know when your in a Gay Chruch?
ONLY HALF THE CONGREGATION IS KNEELING!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
I feel a bit like I'm talking to a wall(g). Perhaps when I said this it wasn't as clear to you as it seemed to me?:
Perhaps you can understand that we come from such wildly divergent places in our belief systems that it is a challenge to find things that we can agree on and that I am trying to use your language even though it is not mine.
I am bending over backwards here to try and talk to you in your own language. I am not a Christian. I do not believe what you believe. I don't know how many different times and ways I need to say that?! It is not in the least unusual to like parts of a book and not the whole book. It is not in the least unusual to find a particular passage in a book beautiful and other parts off the mark.
I do not understand why it is so difficult for you to understand that we do not share the same beliefs? I do not believe that God is part hate. It makes no sense to me. I believe that God is Love. I have said that. It seems to me that you believe that God is sometimes Love and sometimes hate. That doesn't make sense to me.
This interview with God is more in line with my beliefs than the hellfire stuff.
But it *does* say in the Bible that God is Love. Jesus did say that the two greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. So my question is why all the obsession with homosexuals? Why the hatred?
Everyone sins, by your belief system! Everyone! Lots of people flaunt their sins. Not all homosexuals are activists. Surely that is obvious to you. What is the reason for the focus on such a tiny part of the population?
There is a quote from Mark Twain that applies:
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
I am not motivated by fear. It doesn't work with me to try and scare me into believing something. I prefer to do things because I want to because I choose to. I want to become a better and better person because I love God - not because I fear Him. I want to love more and forgive more because that is who I want to be - not because I might get a reward.
I hope that you can open your mind enough to realize that you and I are NOT going to agree - but maybe, possibly, we can understand each other.
They will sash-ay right in
For the last time:
(1) God Himself hates homosexuality. You don't accept this because you are (by your own admission) not a Christian and do not accept the Bible, however you are well aware that there are passages in Bible unequivocally rejecting homosexuality, and that these commandments (unlike, say, the rules of kosher and circumcision), were NEVER repealed.
(2) Hatred of a destructive addiction does NOT equal hatred of the addict. Does AA hate alcoholics? Indeed, if we hated homosexuals we'd shut up, and let them go to hell unchallenged.
(3) Resisting a socially destructive agenda does not necessarily equal hating the other side, although admittedly it can generate a lot of anger sometimes. Especially when it's a proven civilization-destroyer such as homosexuality, which historically has brought down every nation that was ever stupid enough to tolerate it.
There. I've made it as simple as possible. If you don't get it now, it's because you refuse to.
Sunsong, I totally understand that you aren't a Chrisitian and you don't believe what I believe. It appears you are approaching Sacred Scripture as a secular piece of literature. It isn't! It's the holy work of God, a revered, treasured book among Christians. We don't approach it that way and we strongly caution others not to as well.
I do not understand why it is so difficult for you to understand that we do not share the same beliefs? I do not believe that God is part hate. It makes no sense to me. I believe that God is Love. I have said that. It seems to me that you believe that God is sometimes Love and sometimes hate. That doesn't make sense to me.
God is not part hate, but He is a God of justice. He doesn't allow unrepentant sin to go unpunished. God gives us a mandate to be holy, as He is holy. Is it being holy to be a homosexual? No, because God considers it an abomination.
I've always liked interview with God. It's nice.
But it *does* say in the Bible that God is Love. Jesus did say that the two greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. So my question is why all the obsession with homosexuals? Why the hatred?
I don't hate anyone, but I will tell you what Scripture says. I will not bend to accomodate political correctness and pat you on the back and tell you because "God is love" that means homosexuality is okay. That would be blatant lie that contradicts Scripture.
Sunsong, I don't mean to offend you but I have noticed in my experience in trying to communicate the message of Scripture to homosexuals you all use the excuse of "hatred" when you don't like what it says. I know all the buzz words, homophobic, bigot, hatred, closed minded...it's a tactic used to make someone invisualize homosexuals as "victims." You're not victims. You freely choose to turn your back on God's word and continue in a sin that is abominable to Him. (*you* is the collective you for homosexual community)When you do that, please don't act shocked that Christians don't approve of your behavior.
Everyone sins, by your belief system! Everyone! Lots of people flaunt their sins. Not all homosexuals are activists. Surely that is obvious to you. What is the reason for the focus on such a tiny part of the population?
All sinners are called to repentance. The focus on this tiny part of the population is that they flaunt that sin in everyone's face. They don't get away with sinning anymore than anyone else just because they are gay. You don't have divine rights over any other human being.
I am not motivated by fear. It doesn't work with me to try and scare me into believing something. I prefer to do things because I want to because I choose to. I want to become a better and better person because I love God - not because I fear Him. I want to love more and forgive more because that is who I want to be - not because I might get a reward.
Okay, you say you love God. Prove to Him how much you love Him and stop being a homosexual, an act which He abhores.
I hope that you can open your mind enough to realize that you and I are NOT going to agree - but maybe, possibly, we can understand each other.
Oh brother, Sunsong. Here comes the typical "open your mind." My wife is yelling at me to come eat lunch so I better do as she says.. I know who is boss around here (lol!)but real quick... my kids use to say to me when they were teenagers, "Oh Dad, open your mind.." I told them we can open our minds so much sometimes that our brains fall out! There are times we should safe guard our minds against wrong thinking.
Umm, don't look now but the two GREATEST commandments are about love and the 10 lesser commandments do not mention homosexuality. They do mention adultery. It looks to me that according to the Bible homosexuality is not all that serious. Even bearing false witness is higher than homosexuality among the *don'ts* in your belief system. Why don't you have a movement to make adultery against the law?
(2) Hatred of a destructive addiction does NOT equal hatred of the addict. Does AA hate alcoholics? Indeed, if we hated homosexuals we'd shut up, and let them go to hell unchallenged.
Earlier you said this:
But homosexuality is guilty of all this and much, much more. This is why homosexuality, at this particular point in history, receives (and DESERVES) much more intense hostility.
I was going to praise you for your honestly – but now you seem to be backing down(g)
(3) Resisting a socially destructive agenda does not necessarily equal hating the other side, although admittedly it can generate a lot of anger sometimes. Especially when it's a proven civilization-destroyer such as homosexuality, which historically has brought down every nation that was ever stupid enough to tolerate it.
Well, it's a free country - you are entitled to you opinion. But it is not a correct opinion(g). And I'm sure you realize that the proposed Constitutional Amendment is going to die in the Senate. This is going no where fast.
And no, I still don't see the need for hatred, hostility, anger etc
You say you totally understand that I don’t believe the Bible to be God’s word and then you proceed to tell me that that is how I *should* look at it(g). Jeez, I’m at a loss for words. Either you understand that I don’t believe it or you don’t. It doesn’t mean a hill of beans whether *you* think it is the most sacred thing in the world or not. I don’t. And you can talk until you are blue in the face and that won’t change. Is it possible for you to refer to what you believe and not try to force your beliefs on me? Is that possible for you?
I suspect that you do not treat other religions *sacred* books as being God’s word, do you? I suspect that you do not treat other people’s *sacred* books as being sacred, do you?
God is not part hate, but He is a God of justice. He doesn't allow unrepentant sin to go unpunished. God gives us a mandate to be holy, as He is holy. Is it being holy to be a homosexual? No, because God considers it an abomination.
Here we cannot even seem to communicate. To call something an abomination, to abhor it, to detest it - *IS* to hate it. I will not accept just calling hate love and saying it is ok. We all know intrinsically the difference between Love and hate because it was Love that created us. You are fooling no one but yourself when you try to justify hatred by calling it Love. ( or justice) If perfect Love casts out fear ( and it does) then there is no hatred in Love. Period. And to condemn, to abhor, to judge as bad and wrong etc are to hate. Those are just facts. I think it must be hard to understand how bizarre it is to believe in loving and hating together
God’s Love is so vast, pure and magnificent that we would perish in Its Presence at this time. That is why we need time to change, time to learn, time to practice forgiveness and learn of love and being loved so that we can reach a state of mind that can be in the Presence of God. God calls to us and those who are ready begin to better themselves in order to be able to return and be with God again. The things that need to be stopped are stopped by choice, the things that need to be improved, are improved by choice, the things that need to be perfected, are perfected by choice. It is all a joyous journey once the lack of value of condemnation and attack are seen. The idea of punishment becomes meaningless to those on this journey.
I've always liked interview with God. It's nice.
And in the interview God does not talk of hatred, punishment, or abomination – He talks of forgiveness and forgiving.
Sunsong, I don't mean to offend you but I have noticed in my experience in trying to communicate the message of Scripture to homosexuals you all use the excuse of "hatred" when you don't like what it says. I know all the buzz words, homophobic, bigot, hatred, closed minded...it's a tactic used to make someone invisualize homosexuals as "victims." You're not victims. You freely choose to turn your back on God's word and continue in a sin that is abominable to Him. (*you* is the collective you for homosexual community)When you do that, please don't act shocked that Christians don't approve of your behavior.
No offense taken. I try to consider the source of insults before taking them very seriously. And here, from my perspective, are a bunch of people who don’t even live by their own rules calling me names based on a belief system that I don’t embrace. I imagine that you can understand – it wouldn’t have much impact on me.
All sinners are called to repentance. The focus on this tiny part of the population is that they flaunt that sin in everyone's face. They don't get away with sinning anymore than anyone else just because they are gay. You don't have divine rights over any other human being.
Lots of people flaunt what you would call sins. And lots of homosexuals don’t flaunt what you would call sins. You are trying to paint all homosexuals with a broad brush and that is dishonest. How many homosexuals are there in the United States? Six million? Only a minority of those are activists and yet you are trying to punish them all. That is turning them into victims. Homosexuals just want the same liberties as everyone else has.
Okay, you say you love God. Prove to Him how much you love Him and stop being a homosexual, an act which He abhores.
What an arrogant statement. How many times do I need to tell you that I do not believe that God abhors anything. That is your belief, not mine. God is Love, not hate. And secondly here, I am not engaging in any homosexual acts. Where do you get off making assumptions like that! You have some real problems I think.
Oh brother, Sunsong. Here comes the typical "open your mind." My wife is yelling at me to come eat lunch so I better do as she says.. I know who is boss around here (lol!)but real quick... my kids use to say to me when they were teenagers, "Oh Dad, open your mind.." I told them we can open our minds so much sometimes that our brains fall out! There are times we should safe guard our minds against wrong thinking.
Good grief. Again we are not even communicating here. An open mind is not in any danger. An open mind is a healthy mind. It is a closed mind that is in danger of sickness. A closed mind and a hard heart – seem to me to be closely linked.
You got it, I absolutely do not. Muhammed didn't rise from the dead, Buddha can't save you, neither can other false gods of this world from false religions. There can only be one truth, Jesus Christ is it. The Holy Bible is the only book that reveals His coming, death and resurrection.
You are fooling no one but yourself when you try to justify hatred by calling it Love. ( or justice) If perfect Love casts out fear ( and it does) then there is no hatred in Love. Period. And to condemn, to abhor, to judge as bad and wrong etc are to hate. Those are just facts. I think it must be hard to understand how bizarre it is to believe in loving and hating together.
Sadly, I feel it is you that is fooling yourself because you have created a god in your own image because you don't like what God's word has revealed to you. Period!
And in the interview God does not talk of hatred, punishment, or abomination – He talks of forgiveness and forgiving.
God will forgive you IF you repent. There is no forgiveness without repentance. Need I remind you too that the Interview with God, while it may make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, is not the Bible.
No offense taken. I try to consider the source of insults before taking them very seriously. And here, from my perspective, are a bunch of people who don’t even live by their own rules calling me names based on a belief system that I don’t embrace. I imagine that you can understand – it wouldn’t have much impact on me.
I haven't called you any names, have I? Secondly, why are you here arguing with a bunch of people then about their belief system which you don't embrace if it doesn't have any impact on you? If you don't want to embrace our belief system, go on your way and live according to how you want to live.
What an arrogant statement. How many times do I need to tell you that I do not believe that God abhors anything. That is your belief, not mine. God is Love, not hate. And secondly here, I am not engaging in any homosexual acts. Where do you get off making assumptions like that! You have some real problems I think.
Because YOU so much as told us you are. Remember the post #153 and you used a link from Gay and Lesbian Adventists? Then Petronski told you to tend to your own church in post #186. Why didn't you correct him about that? Why haven't you corrected others that have assumed you are gay? I don't have any problems. You've defended homosexuality and said it wasn't an abomination since you first entered the discussion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what your sexual orientation is.
Good grief. Again we are not even communicating here. An open mind is not in any danger. An open mind is a healthy mind. It is a closed mind that is in danger of sickness. A closed mind and a hard heart – seem to me to be closely linked.
You say we aren't communicating because I won't come into agreement that homosexuality isn't an abomination, that I won't agree to say the Bible is full of holes and mistranslated, that God is only a flower smelling, peace- nik, hippy dude and for that I am accused of being closed minded? Hmmm... did you ever think you need to OPEN your mind and your Heart to God's revealed word instead of closing it off because you don't like the contents? Having an "open mind" doesn't preclude you from sickness. There are times that people open their minds to the wrong things, like drugs. Like homosexuality.
I think that it is disrespectful to others, and really not much different than Moslems, to declare that only what you believe has any value. I mean that is exactly why the Islamists tell us they are going to kill us and force the entire world to submit to their ideology! I am not saying that it is disrespectful to *believe* that you have the only true path – but to refuse to listen and learn from others is not only arrogance, it is deeply disrespectful. You should not be surprised that those who believe differently from you – do not respect you or your views – since you make it so clear that you don’t respect them. You can’t expect a double standard to apply where you are *assumed* to be right and others are *assumed* to be wrong. Just because you can point to words in a book to back you up will not be persuasive to most people. You need to teach through example – that’s what people really learn from.
I would encourage you to look within – for it is there that you will find Jesus and the kingdom of heaven. Reading a book is all fine and good – but it is not enough – especially when the validity of the book is in doubt. The bible is a book. It has some truly beautiful passages in it and it has some ugly ones as well.
I think where the fundamentalists hurt themselves on the issue of homosexuality is that they come across as a bunch of sinners pointing their fingers at other sinners - condemning and attacking them. If one looks at only the bible – there are two great commandments and there are 10 lesser commandments in which homosexuality is not even mentioned. So the fundamentalists elevate what they think of as the *sin* of homosexuality beyond where it is. Homosexuality lists with sins such as pride, malice, adultery etc.
My view, with those kind of things (pride, malice, adultery, homosexuality etc) is that if they are not against the law then it is not the business of government to interfere with them. Government should do only a limited number of things, imo, and do them well.
Because YOU so much as told us you are. Remember the post #153 and you used a link from Gay and Lesbian Adventists? Then Petronski told you to tend to your own church in post #186. Why didn't you correct him about that? Why haven't you corrected others that have assumed you are gay? I don't have any problems. You've defended homosexuality and said it wasn't an abomination since you first entered the discussion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what your sexual orientation is.
No, I did no such thing. You assumed – which is an unloving and disrespectful thing to do. If you were to think for even 10 seconds – how could I be a member of a church called “Gay and Lesbian Adventists” if I am not a Christian? And I am not a Christian. That I linked to an article from them is not meaningful, I linked to a couple of bible passages as well. That doesn’t mean that I’m a bible thumper.
Most of Petronski’s posts to me I just ignored. They did not warrant a response. But more importantly, I am talking with YOU. I am not talking with Petronski. In fact, it seems to be just you and I here now. And YOU assumed rather than ask. That reflects poorly on you as does your response when confronted with it. Rather than take responsibility – you tried to pass the buck.
My prayer for you is that you look within and that you learn that we are never going to all agree but that we can listen to each other, learn from each other and respect each other.
Most of Petronski’s posts to me I just ignored. They did not warrant a response. But more importantly, I am talking with YOU. I am not talking with Petronski. In fact, it seems to be just you and I here now. And YOU assumed rather than ask. That reflects poorly on you as does your response when confronted with it. Rather than take responsibility – you tried to pass the buck.
Huh? I didn't try to pass the buck, I gave you the reasons why I thought that. Look, let's face facts. You have been here for days defending homosexuality, saying you don't believe what the Bible says about it, and now you want to play the injured party because someone assumed you're gay? How is it unloving and disrespectful to assume that about you since you think it's okay to be homosexual and have been a staunch defender of it?
I can't read your mind nor your relationship with Petronski since I'm fairly new here. How was I to know you just ignore his posts? Besides, you have used that Gay and Lesbian Adventist site in another thread. There are certainly plenty of secular gay sites you could use to beat up the Bible with, why do you keep choosing that one?
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
As I said before, God Himself hates homosexuality. Take it up with Him.
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