"Intelligent design" legislation in New York dies

National Center for Science Education ^ | 26 June 2006 | Staff

[Virginia-American]

...putting giraffes in a pen with only low bushes, adding a million years...

How about putting mosquitoes in the London Underground and waiting 100 years?

How about raising wolf puppies and artificially selecting them for 20000 or so years to the point that teacup poodles and Great Danes can't breed? (Ie are separate speices)

How about the genetic experiments I alluded to: Say a genetic marker is common to cows and whales, but is not found in horses. Which other species will it be found in? Rhinos, hippos, pigs, camels, deer, platypuses, what? The ToE can answer this, and so far its answers have always been confirmed by genetic analysis. What is the corresponding answer for any "alternative theory"?

[jwalsh07]

How about raising wolf puppies and artificially selecting them for 20000 or so years to the point that teacup poodles and Great Danes can't breed?

That would be intelligent design as a mechanism for changing allele frequency.

You sure that's where you want to take the discussion?

[ml1954]

It does not disagree with the Bible, and is not taught in schools as a matter of routine.

There was a great debate awhile back about whether or not Galileo's Revolution Theory agreed with the Bible. For a long time the leadership of the major Christian religions thought it didn't. And now they do.

Similarly, the leadership of most major Christian religions no longer have a problem reconciling the Theory Of Evolution with the Bible. Amongst the Christian leadership, it's pretty much only the minority Biblical fundamentalists who have a problem.

[Virginia-American]

Actually it's more like Darwinism that ID. The dogs lived or not depending on the environment (us). The mutations they presented were all caused naturally, and the genetic combinations were only controlled by breeding. This is artificial selection, which inspired Darwin with the idea of natural selection.

ID would be if we designed the wrinkle gene and inserted it into the Shar-Pei, or designed a spotted gene and made Dalmatians, etc.

The point here was, in any case, that speciation has been observed.

[jwalsh07]

Artificial selection by definition is not natural selection, thus the mechanism is not Darwinian, it is id. Period, end of story.

[Virginia-American]

I didn't say it was; I said "more like". It is a fact that artificial selection by dog, horse, pigeon, etc breeders, was a major inspiration for natural selection.

It's not design either, since it relies on naturally-occuring mutations and chance gene reshufflings to produce new breeds. A sufficiently-skilled designer could make a dog with wings; a breeder can't.

[jwalsh07]

It is design. Just as the architect includes natures mutations in his design so does the breeder. This is a silly argument. Intelligent design as a mechanism to change allele frequency is part of evoultions new paradigm. You really should get used to it, some time in the future people will look at these crevo threads and LOL at the arguments over silly mechanisms.

[PatrickHenry]

It is a fact that artificial selection by dog, horse, pigeon, etc breeders, was a major inspiration for natural selection.

Human selection of various traits among plants and animals is no different, in principle, from natural selection in nature, as when lions select which of their prey animals will be chased and eaten. Whatever we do is, by definition, doable. And natural. Our actions are not incomprehensibly mysterious and they're certainly not miraculous.

On the other hand, the things that ID claims the designer does is, by their definition, absolutely impossible by the natural means of evolution. If such things were possible by natural means, there would be no reason for anyone to dream up the alleged actions of the alleged designer.

[SampleMan]

And how would any of that disprove my point? Are you reading my posts, or are you just making assumptions?

Your pointing out that we can conduct selective breeding to change a species traits is absolutely meaningless, unless you are asserting the ID argument.

You want to equate a human brain selecting traits to natural selection. This seems counter to your own argument. Selective breeding of animals does not take 20,000 years. It can be done very, very quickly.

The question is not whether major differences (like human selection) can lead to change. The question is how extremely miniscule changes can possibly add reproductive advantage, which I take it is your one and only accepted method of evolution.

In your mosquitoe experiment (which I take it wasn't planned or controlled, so not really an experiment) what is your proof that the mosquito's change was due to beneficial natural selection and not simply a mutation in an isolated population without any substantial harm? Again you are projecting a "why" when simply don't know.

Your examples just as easily prove my theory as yours. In effect they show that evolution occurs (I've never disputed that), but other than selective breeding, how do they answer the "why"?

[SampleMan]

Not me. I didn't post it.

[Recovering_Democrat]

Wrong on every account. Evolution does not try to explain the origin of life.

Really. Tell that to the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, and the editors of their magazine. This big article sure looks like an attempt to trace evolutionary biologists attempts to explain the origin of life.

"The Origins of Life

Or even this ten-year old web page listing the publication of several attempts by evolutionists to explain the origin of life:

The Origins and Early Evolution of Life

I'll re-create the page here for people interested...the page seems to be very old, with few updates....I do want to note it bears the URL address of the University of California at Santa Cruz.

THE ORIGINS AND EARLY EVOLUTION OF LIFE

The World Wide Web Home Page for research
on the origin and early evolution of life on the Earth.
Updated April, 1997.

The Origins of Life Gordon Conference: July 27 - August 1 1997

Table of Contents

Message from the Editor

The Origins Forum

Meeting Announcements

Published Papers

Vol. 26, #1, 1996

Vol. 26, #2, 1996

Vol. 26, #3-5, 1996

Vol. 26, #6, 1996

Vol. 27, #1, 1997

Papers Accepted for Publication

Special Issues in Progress

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Message From the Editor:
In recent years, the origin and early evolution of life has seen an unprecedented development. New theories concerning the origins of life such as cometary sources of organics, the possible role of marine hydrothermal systems on the chemistry of the primitive earth and the postulate of the RNA world have brought many new scientists to the field of origins of life. It is the role of "Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere" to bring these articles together in one journal. While any scientific study related to the origin of life has its place in the journal, the main interests revolve around theoretical and experimental studies dealing with planetary atmospheres, interstellar chemistry, precambrian studies, prebiotic chemistry, and early evolution.

Since its first publication in 1968 when it was entitled Space Life Sciences, from 1974 to 1983 when it was called Origins of Life and from 1984 to the present as "Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere", it has continued to publish special issues and papers dealing with important topics dealing with the origin and early evolution of life. For example, recent special issues of the Journal include "Marine Hydrothermal Systems," "Comets and the Origins and Evolution of Life," "Water in the Solar System and its Role in Exobiology and "RNA and the Origins of Life. " In addition, OLEB publishes the abstracts from the triennial meetings of the International Society of the Study of the Origins of Life as well as key papers from these meetings. The breadth of coverage is exemplified by the titles of recent papers including:

"Archean Geochemistry of Formaldehyde and Cyanide and the Oligomerization of Cyanohydrin," T. Arrhenius, G. Arrhenius and W. Paplawsky.

"Hydrothermal and Oceanic pH. Conditions of Possible Relevance to the Origin of Life," Gordon Macloud, Christopher McKeown, Alan J. Hall and Michael Russell.

"Chloroflexus Aurantiacus and Ultraviolet Radiation: Implication for Archean Shallow-Water Stromatolites," Beverly K. Pierson, Heather K. Mitchell and Alyson L. Ruff-Roberts.

"The Phylogeny of tRNA Molecules and the Origin of the Genetic Code", M. DiGiulio.

"Chemistry of Potentially Prebiological Natural Products," A. Eschenmoser.

"Nucleotide-Analogs Based on Pentaerythritol - A Hypothesis," Alan W. Schwartz.

"Enantioselective Autocatalysis. Spontaneous Resolution and the Prebiotic Generation of Chirality," William A. Bonner.

"On the Reaction of 2-Aminopropionitrile in Aqueous Media," Katsuhiro Kawashiro, Shigeaki Seno, Shigeru Sugiyama and Hiromu Hayashi.

"Electrical Energy Sources for Organic Synthesis on the Early Earth," Christopher Chyba and Carl Sagan.

"Comet Halley as an Aggregate of Interstellar Dust and Further Evidence for the Photochemical Formation of Organics in the Interstellar Medium," R. Briggs, G. Ertem, J. P. Ferris, J. M. Greenberg, P. J. McCain, C. X. Mendoza-Gomez and W. Schutte.

I am pleased with the good papers being received by OLEB (see the list below). I have been given the flexibility by the publisher to increase the number of journal pages to accommodate the additional papers as needed so expect no delay in their publication. The continued support of the scientific community in sending their manuscripts to OLEB for review is sincerely appreciated.
Jim Ferris

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THE ORIGINS FORUM
November, 1996. The Origins home page invites readers to participate in a forum in which topics having general interest for our field will be discussed. Please send your responses to Dave Deamer (deamer@hydrogen.ucsc.edu) who is editing the home page. Selected comments will be published in the January 1997 update of the home page, at which time a new discussion topic will be introduced. Please expect a certain amount of editing as required by space considerations.

Discussion Topic 2. Please comment on the recent evidence (ALH84001 Mars meteorite) that microorganisms existed on Mars approximately 3.6 billion years ago.

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MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT

Fifth Chemical Congress of North America

Symposium #629: Origins of Organic Matter in the Early Earth: Endogenous vs. Exogenous Sources

Cancun, Quintana Roo, Mexico
November 11-15, 1997

Organizers: R. Navarro Gonzalez, R.K. Khanna, V. Basiuk

Scope: Life on Earth evolved as a result of a process of chemical evolution from simple precursors (HCN, HCHO, etc.) to prebiotic molecules (amino acids, purines, pyrimidines, sugars) and eventually to self-replicating molecules. Current geochemical models for the early Earth suggest that synthesis of organic matter may not have been as favorable as previously thought. This immediately raises the question as to the origin of organic matter necessary for the emergence of life. An alternative view is that complex organics were brought to Earth without a significant chemical degradation ready for the next stage of chemical evolution. The purpose of this symposium will be to address this topic and to try to assess the relative contributions of endogenous (synthesized on Earth) and exogenous (extraterrestrial delivery) sources of the organic matter necessary for the appearance of life. The symposium will be organized into two sessions beginning in an afternoon and ending in the morning of the next day. It will consist of 15 invited speakers and contributed papers in the form of oral and poster presentations.

IF INTERESTED IN ATTENDING, PLEASE RESPOND BY FAX OR E-MAIL TO:

Prof. Vladimir Basiuk
Instituto de Ciencias Nucleares,
Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico,
Circuito Exterior C.U., A.Postal 70-543,
04510 Mexico, D.F., Mexico

Fax: (52-5) 616 2233
e-mail: basiuk@roxanne.nuclecu.unam.mx

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Papers Published in Vol. 26, #1, 1996

Catalysis of the Oligomerization of O-Phosphoserine, Aspartic or Glutamic Acid by Cationic Micelles. C. Boheler, A. R. Hill and L. E. Orgel

Phosphorylation of Glyceric Acid in Aqueous Solution Using Trimetaphosphate. V. Kolb and L.E. Orgel.

Potentially Prebiotic Syntheses of Condensed Phosphates. A.D. Keefe and S.L. Miller

Enantioselective Autocatalysis IV. Implications for Parity Violations Effects. W. A. Bonner

Response of Bacillus subtilus Spores to Dehydration and UV Irradiation at Extremely Low Temperatures. K. Dose and A. Klein

Origins of Life: SA Comparison of Theories and Applications to Mars. L. Davis and C.P.McKay

A Review of Conditions Effecting the Radiolysis Due to 40K on Nucleic Acid Bases and Their DerivativesAdsorbed on Clay Minerals. F.G. Mosqueira, G. Albarran and A. Negron-Mendoza

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Papers Published in Vol. 26, #2, 1996

A Search for Interstellar Oxiranecarbonitrile (C₃H₃NO). J. E. Dickens, W. M. Irvine, M. Ohishi, G. Arrhenius, S. Pitch, A. Bauder, F. Müller and A. Eschenmoser

Was Ferrocyanide a Prebiotic Reagent? A. D. Keefe and S. L. Miller

Possible Role of Volcanic Ash-Gas Clouds in the Earth's Prebiotic Chemistry. V. A. Basiuk and R. Navarro-Gonzalez

Organic Sulfur Compounds Resulting from FeS, H₂S or HCl and CO₂. W. Heinen and A.M. Lauwers

Oligomerization of Uridine Phosphorimidazolides on Montmorillonite: A Model for the Prebiotic Synthesis of RNA on Minerals. P.Z. Ding, K. Kawamura and J.P. Ferris

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Papers Published in Vol. 26, #3-5, 1996

Abstracts (over 200) of the papers presented at the 1996 International Society for the Study of the Origins of Life Meeting in Orleans, France.

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Papers Published in Vol. 26, #6, 1996

Oligomerization of Negatively-Charged Amino Acids by Carbonyldiimidazole. A. R. Hill and L. E. Orgel

Simultaneous Formation of Peptides and Nucleotides from N-Phosphothreonine. W. Zhou, Y. Ju, Y. Zhao, Q. Wang, and G. Luo

2-Aminopropionitrile Polymer. I. The Hydrolyzate of the Basic Fraction. S. Morimoto, K. Kawashiro, M. Watanabe, and A. Ohsaki

The -Sheets of Proteins, The Biosynthetic Relationships Between Amino Acids, and the Origin of the Genetic Code. M. Di Gulio

Book Review: What is Life? The Next Fifty Years. Speculations on the Future of Biology, M. P. Murphy and L. A. J. O'Neill, Reviewed by A. G. Cairns-Smith.

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Papers Published in Vol. 27, #1, 1997

Origin of the Biologically Important Elements. Virginia Trimble (vtrimble@astro.umd.edu)

Circumstellar and Interstellar Synthesis of Organic Molecules. Xander Tielens and S.B. Charnley (tielens@dusty.arc.nasa.gov)

Detection of Organic Matter in Interstellar Grains. Yvonne Pendleton (PENDLETON@galileo.arc.nasa.gov)

The Nature and Evolution of Interstellar Ices. Jean Chiar (chiar@charon.phys.rpi.edu)

The Search for Interstellar Glycine. Lew Snyder (snyder@astro.uiuc.edu)

The Origin of Low Mass Stars. Bruce Wilking (brucew@bok.umsl.edu)

Analogs of the Early Solar System. Dave Koerner (davidk@coma.jpl.nasa.gov)

The Early Solar System. Mike Gaffey (gaffem@rpi.edu)

Physics and Chemistry of the Solar Nebula. Jonathan Lunine (jlunine@LPL.Arizona.EDU)

Chemical Evolution in the Atmosphere of Titan: Comparison to the Prebiotic Earth. David Clarke and Jim Ferris (ferrij@rpi.edu)

Is Extraterrestrial Organic Matter Relevant to the Origin of Life on Earth? D.C. Whittet (doug@whittet.phys.rpi.edu)

Interstellar Ices Studied with the Infrared Space Observatory. D.C. Whittet (doug@whittet.phys.rpi.edu)

The Search for Life on Mars. Chris McKay ( mckay@galileo.arc.nasa.gov)

Habital Zones Around Low Mass Stars and the Search for Extraterrestrial Life. Jim Kasting (kasting@essc.psu.edu)

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Papers Accepted for Publication

Emergence of Template-and-Sequence-Directed (TSD) Syntheses: I. A Bio-Geochemical Model. N. Lahav and S. Nir

Evolutionary Consideration on 5-Aminolevuliniate Synthase in Nature. T. Oh-Hama

Attempted Prebiotic Synthesis of Pseudouridine. J. Dworkin

N-Carbamoyl--Amino Acids Rather Than Free Amino Acid Formation in the Primitive Hydrosphere: A Novel Proposal for the Emergence of Prebiotic Peptides. J. Taillades, I. Beuzelin, L. Garrel, V. Tabacik, C. Bied, A. Commeyras

Ultraviolet Radiation from F and K Stars and Implications for Planetary Habitability. J. F. Kasting, D. C. B. Whittet and William R. Sheldon

Photosynthesis and the Origin of Life. H. Hartman

Dimerization in Highly Concentrated Solutions of Phosphorimidazolide Activated Mononucleotides. A. Kanavarioti

Prebiotic Transamination. J. C. Bishop, S. D. Cross and T. G. Waddell

Extraterrestrial Organic Matter: A Review. W. M. Irvine

Primary Sources of Phosphorous and Phosphates in Chemical Evolution. E. Macia, M. V. Hernandez, and J. Oro

Studies on the Lead-Catalyzed Synthesis of Aldopentoses. G. Zubay

Condensation of Glycylglycine to Oligoglycine with Trimetaphosphate in Aqueous Solution II. Catalytic Effect of Magnesium Ion. Y. Yamagata and K. Inomata

Modelling of the Prebiotic Synthesis of Oligopeptides: Silicate Caytalysts Help To Overcome the Critical Stage. K. I. Zamarev, V. N. Rommanikov, R. I. Salganik and W. A. Wlassoff

Formaldehyde in Hot Springs. D. E. Ingmanson

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Special Issues in Progress:

Papers from the ISSOL Meeting on the Origin of Life, July 7-12, 1996, Orleans, France

Mars: Early Environment and the Origins of Life. Special Editor, Jack Farmer, NASA Ames, email: jack_farmer@qmgate.arc.nasa.gov

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Supported by Kluwer Academic Publishers, The Netherlands. Publisher of the journal Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere.

Editor, James Ferris, Department of Chemistry, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY.

Home page edited by David W. Deamer, Department of Chemistry, University of California, Santa Cruz CA 95604. deamer@hydrogen.ucsc.edu

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BTW, macroevolution has never been demonstrated.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

Your long posting shows that the origins of life and life's early evolution are not the same thing. The ToE doesn't deal with anything but imperfect self-replicating life. That's how it has been ever since Darwin.

"BTW, macroevolution has never been demonstrated."

Speciation has been observed.

[Dimensio]

Intelligent design as a mechanism to change allele frequency is part of evoultions new paradigm.

What tests can be performed to detect this intelligence?

[blowfish]

I think it's a terrible shame that it's even progressed to that point; they should already be doing that.

The problem is that a good science teacher should be teaching science. Since the theory of evolution is the best known theory that explains the observed physical evidence, it's entirely appropriate. I have no problem with a science teacher pointing out gaps in the fossil record and so forth, as long as they emphasize that there's really no competing theory at this time.

[Boxen]

How would you refer to the case of London's Culex Molestus? Here's a PubMed abstract for the original paper. If you are genuinely curious, I'm sure I can obtain a PDF of the article through my university.

Your post does not show that any one genesis scenario is always and forever linked to evolution. Abiogenesis does not necessarily lead to evolution. If it could be shown that Cthulu(Or other deity/alien race) placed the chemicals needed for life into the primodial sea and then coaxed a cell into existence, evolution would remain mostly unaffected. The most important question raised by such a find would be "When will Cthulu return to harvest his human crop?"

Gentle Criticism: Your post is needlessly long. Did Enantioselective Autocatalysis. Spontaneous Resolution and the Prebiotic Generation of Chirality, the Emergence of Template-and-Sequence-Directed (TSD) Syntheses: I. A Bio-Geochemical Model, and 2-Aminopropionitrile Polymer. I. The Hydrolyzate of the Basic Fraction have anything to do with your original point? I suggest that you tone it down next time.

[ahayes]

Let's see. . . Here's your definition of ID:

You're saying mutations arise naturally.
An intelligent being chooses which mutations to propagate and eliminates the others by such covert means as having them eaten by lions because they're too slow, etc.

So you're a theistic evolutionist?

[jwalsh07]

What tests can be performed to detect this intelligence?

You're not serious, are you?

How about this test?

Sequence the genome of wheat before and after Monsanto intelligently designs a new species.

But if we're in a Popperian mood, how would one falsify the statement that life arose from a chemical reaction?

[jwalsh07]

For the umpteenth time on crevo threads. I am not an ID'ist, I am not a Darwinist, I am a creationist in the sense that I believe God created the universe and that which is in it.

Are lions the fallback position when you have nothing else to say? I mean obviously the lions are responsible for the giraffes neck being too short, right?

[Dimensio]

Sequence the genome of wheat before and after Monsanto intelligently designs a new species.

Are you saying, then, that a wheat genome is not "intelligently designed" until after Monsanto alters it?

But if we're in a Popperian mood, how would one falsify the statement that life arose from a chemical reaction?

As the theory of evolution makes no such claim, I do not understand the relevance of your question.

[ahayes]

Tetchy. You can call it what you like, but if your opinion is as you posted above then you have no gripes with evolutionists because you accept the same process. You just believe in a supernatural aspect that evolutionary theory does not comment on.

If you prefer copepods to lions you may use those as an example.