Posted on 06/29/2006 12:17:31 PM PDT by rface
Yes of course you are right, Jesus was telling his disciples to insult their enemies and then run them trough with a sword.
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Getting a little testy aren't we?
When the great pacifist Bertram Russell was asked what he would do if he saw his mother being attacked he replied, "I am betting on my mother."
Jesus was teaching a Godly response to bullies. He was challenging the etiquette of brawling. His admonition is that there is no etiquette required. Simply say to the bully, "Kill me if you dare but do not try to badger me into stooping to your tactics."
Now, do you feel bad? I have turned the other cheek and made you out to be the bully.
BUMP!!!!!! Thank you for this!
BUMP!
Yes, you have said this very well. To do so brings Our Lord down to the level of some sort of Confucious or other human 'guru'. War is the punishment for sin, and it is never a blessing.
Absolutely, positively, and the for the following purpose:
Romans 13: 3-4
3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same: 4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.
God ordains ruling authorities to wage war to punish EVILDOERS.
Bump for later.
Nice post!
Life is imperfect. God isn't. And nobody on this Earth is going to tell me they are killing me for God. That's what radical Islam believes.
Some people think their personal God is right there on their shoulder drinking a beer and firing their rifle with them. I reserve God for a more perfect existence way beyond and above that. To each their own. As I said, i support the war totally, I just don't think Jesus' teachings supported war.
I reserve God for a more perfect existence
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I fear God for His retribution on those who would reserve Him for their sissy sentiments.
Not to resist evil, etc... What is here commanded, is a Christian patience under injuries and affronts, and to be willing even to suffer still more, rather than to indulge the desire of revenge: but what is further added does not strictly oblige according to the letter, for neither did Christ nor St. Paul turn the other cheek. St. John 18, and Acts 23.
Jesus was not discussing etiquette in brawling. He plainly was preaching a moral lesson and he discussed other examples in teh same paragraph, all involving doing good for the person who abuses you and not resisting even their attack.
It seems curious to me that you have even created your own quote for what Jesus really was saying.
Jesus' message was a change from the Old Testament. He said that directly. Maybe wars are morally justifiable, I happen to think they are. But the folks who think good ole Jesus was really telling them it's ok to kill - well he just didn't.
And what of your attempts to turn Him into a peace loving pacifist, "Williams"? Are you seriously going to tell us that Jesus, the Word made flesh, who was described as having been in the beginning, with God, by very nature God, the Creator of all things, into some kind of "free to be you and me hug a tree" liberal?
If we start from the position that Jesus is God (which a lot of people have trouble with, including many "religious" people), then it was Jesus who said to the man in the beginning, "Subdue and rule" over the creation (Genesis 1:27 and beyond, paraphrased). "Subdue and rule" how? Ask nicely?
If we start from the position that Jesus is God, then it wasn't very nice, what He did in drowning everything and everyone on earth in a flood (on a planet where it had never rained), save Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives, and some animals). "But they were evil", some might say. Well, so are the terrorists.
If we start from the position that Jesus is God, then it was Jesus who was part and party of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and some of the destroyed included - GASP - homosexuals! Rabid homosexuals! Wonder what the SAGCLU would've said about that?
If we start from the position that Jesus is God, then He did a pretty mean thing in destroying those Egyptians that had kept the Israelites in bondage for over 400 years. And worse yet, this Jesus guy had a fetish for drowning, forget war - He drowned the Egyptians in the Red Sea, and took the wheels off of the chariots, so that the horses drowned too! PETA would have had a cow over that (pun intended).
If we start from the position that Jesus is God, then I don't know how the idea of a pacifist would comply with His command to King Saul to kill the Amalekites, or the whoever-kites, man, woman, child, animal, and to not spare anyone. Well, Saul did kill the men, but he spared the women and children. For his pacifist leanings, King Saul was replaced, and both he and his son Jonathan met violent ends that God, if He didn't cause them, certainly allowed.
Why did they have to die? I mean, couldn't they have just received life in prison? Orange glazed chicken? A little alternate high heat and air conditioning at a Middle Eastern style Club Gitmo?
And finally, though I could go on, if we start with the premise that Jesus is God, no pacifist could have said, in Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."
And if the first premise fails, and one is NOT to believe that Jesus is God, Jesus Himself said, in Matthew 10:34-36, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw — a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
And further, back to the premise that Jesus is God, why not just give Ananias and Sapphira a 'time-out' for lying to the Holy Spirit about fortune that they took...instead of striking them dead on the spot? (New Testament)
However, if you still want to purport that Jesus is just some kind of peace loving peacenik, who would NEVER cause or support someone else's destruction, kindly sell that crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here.
Just want to make clear I am done preaching at least for the day. I'm not a pacifist, believe firmly in the necessity and morality of defending ourselves.
But the folks who think good ole Jesus was really telling them it's ok to kill - well he just didn't.
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Who are these folks you are railing against? Seems to me your house of cards reeks of rotten herring.
If you think Jesus Christ is to be labeled either a conservative or liberal as defined by 21st century American politics, I'm happy for the self assurance you gain from believing that jesus is a member of your political party.
Jesus was also really tough on that herd of pigs that he filled with demons that drove them to violently kill themselves in the sea.
The peaceniks are not really for peace. If so, they would have been as upset when Bill Clinton bombed the Serbians. The vast majority of today's peaceniks are simply partisan Democrats who see an opportunity to use the war to serve their objectives. They are evil.
There are some real peaceniks that would even oppose a Clinton war, but then, they are just plain idiots. They refuse to accept that there are evil people in this world and that the only way you can suppress their evil is to kill them.
Rotten herring? My mother told me never to argue religion or politics. This being Free Republic, I will restrict myself to the politics part from now on.
Then you are rejecting that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, are one in the same. If, as Hebrews 13:8 says ... God is the same yesterday, today, and forever ... then the same God that destroyed the Egyptian Army in the Red Sea, is the same God that ordered Joshua to lead the children of Israel in a purge of the people that inhabited the promised land. It is the same God that stood with David that led the children of Israel to sing, "Saul has killed his thousands, but David his tens of thousands" ... is also Christ. God has made war. God has directed man to make war. Clearly, in Revelation, man is not extinct, and regardless of whether you believe in a pre- mid- or post- tribulation rapture, or any rapture at all, the armies of the anti-Christ are waging war against both believers, and then the army of the Lord joins the battle.
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