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U.S. Treads Softly Over Iran’s Role in Crisis (flying baloney alert)
NYSlimes ^ | 8/5/2006 | JOHN M. BRODER and MARK MAZZETTI

Posted on 08/05/2006 2:13:21 PM PDT by Dark Skies

Bush has warned against for five years. Iran’s nuclear program, its support of groups like Hezbollah and its strident anti-Israel and anti-American statements appear to make it a prime target for American retribution.

But the administration finds itself relying on Israel to cripple Hezbollah and on the United Nations and an ad hoc alliance of European nations, China and Russia to try to rein in Tehran’s nuclear program.

“Iran is the enemy that best fits the definition of the adversary Bush has defined,” said Robert Malley, director of the Middle East program at the International Crisis Group. “This is the poster child of what he thinks the U.S. should be going after.”

And yet, so far, the Bush administration has pulled its punches.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Israel; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 2006israelwar; iran; proliferation; treasontimes
There may be some truth to this article but I suggest may be plenty of behind the scenes activity designed to draw Iran out from behind the skirt-tails of Russia and China.

This is more of a three dimensional chess game than is apparent on the surface.

1 posted on 08/05/2006 2:13:23 PM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: Dark Skies

2 posted on 08/05/2006 2:16:28 PM PDT by Flavius (Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum)
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To: Dark Skies
I totally agree......and have written so....I don't think what we hear...even from other Arab nations is really what is happening...at least within the political and intelligence community....someone is working and conniving and ten moves ahead...though Iran probably was more of a threat then Iraq...but I don't disagree with getting rid of Saddam....but Iran is the real player....and ALOT smarter the Hussein ever was....but we will still outmaneuver them I believe.....
3 posted on 08/05/2006 2:22:39 PM PDT by NorCalRepub
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To: Dark Skies

I believe this would significantly improve our strategic position in the War on Terror.

We should destroy the Iranian oil industry. By Bombing all oil transportation facilities, pipelines, storage tanks, tanker trucks, rolling stock, refinery’s etc… we can cripple the funding of numerous terrorist organizations, Hezbollah, Hama’s, Sadr’s militia, Syria, as well as make it more difficult for Iran to buy missiles and such from North Korea, China, and Russia.
It would remove Iran’s threat that if we attack they will shut off the oil. Making the threat ridiculous and demonstrating that they are a single product state and without oil, and no other product that the world wants, they are nothing. Additionally, by declaring that we will destroy any reconstituting oil industry as long as the Mullacracy remains in charge, we can focus the Iranian’s blame for the situation, on the Theocracy and their support of Terrorism.
This will also bring home to all the other oil producing countries like Venezuela, Libya, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, etc… that they are very vulnerable to the same tactic.
In addition, this will gain us time for the Iraqi’s to stand on their own, and free up troops we would need if we have to go into Iran, North Korea or somewhere else.
Sure the price of gas will rise, but this will also demonstrate to the world that the USA is not in Iraq for the Oil, and the onus can be shifted on to the Democrats for not allowing more domestic production.
“It’s not the control of the spice but the power to destroy the spice that is the real power.”
It has recently been said that the nuclear production facilities in Iran are so deep underground that we can’t reach them with conventional weapons. Perhaps so, but maybe we can starve those facilities of funds. Nuclear weapons are terribly expensive to build, and if Iran now needs all its money to repair vital life supporting infrastructure, it may have to slow or stop its attempt to build an atomic bomb.
Finally, Iran is a state sponsor of Terrorists, it must be punished, and it must be seen to be punished. Iran’s continued sponsorship of terror is a slap in America’s and President Bush’s face, and it must be answered.
The following was written in response to an objection I received about having to pay more for fuel if this strategy was followed.
I think you are overly concerned about the economic considerations, and not concerned enough about the need to prosecute the War on Terror to the utmost.
1. The US has a full Strategic Petroleum Reserve of 700 million Barrels, and we aren't the only nation with an SPR. What good is it if you never use it? The average price paid on that 700 million barrels was $27, so the nation would actually make a profit selling it now.
2. The only reason the US isn't energy independent now is because of political factors. 2 Trillion Barrels of oil in oil shale (see www.oiltechinc.com). Any organic matter can be turned into fuel (see www.powerenergy.com). The US would and should be using much more Nuclear power if it wasn't for the Ecofreaks. There are also many areas in the US that are now off limits to drilling. All it takes is the political will to develop all of these. Higher fuel prices will provide that political pressure.
3. Iran is using diplomatic processes, just like the Nazi's before them. Talking is a waste of our time.
4. Iran subsidizes gas at $.10 a gallon, so by destroying the Iranian oil industry not only do we instantly remove 20% of their GDP. We put them all on foot, and in the dark.
5. The mullahs want to take their world back to the 7th century, we should assist them.


4 posted on 08/05/2006 2:25:09 PM PDT by Eagle74 (From time to time the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots)
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To: Dark Skies
Hit piece. When he was twisting arms to get the eurowusses to even go along with strong language in the resolution, he was an cowboy ogre. No he's a limp-wrister?

The Times slanders this great president from every conceivable angle.
5 posted on 08/05/2006 3:04:15 PM PDT by pissant
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To: pissant
The Times slanders this great president from every conceivable angle.

We are at last at "fish or cut bait" time. Whether this President is great (or not) will be determined against the backdrop of history (this history).

He may be holding everything in reserve...but he isn't great yet because this play isn't over.

6 posted on 08/05/2006 4:32:09 PM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: Dark Skies

Hate to break it to you. We have been fishing for almost 5 years. And the islamo scum have been getting trounced at eveery turn. But yeah, I guess if one thought that the WOT would be over in 3 years, then I can understand the disappointment.


7 posted on 08/05/2006 4:38:46 PM PDT by pissant
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To: pissant
Baloney...they are getting trounced where? In this country and in Europe and Australia, they are growing. Where are they getting trounced...in Iraq and Afghanistan?

We haven't yet begun to fight. In fact, we haven't begun to identify a Churchill who might lead us in this fight. It ain't "islam is a religion of peace" W. It ain't "islam is benevolent" Condi. It might be Rudy...it might be Newty. It most certainly might be Bibi.

But this war hasn't even begun!!!

8 posted on 08/05/2006 4:46:17 PM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: Dark Skies
Love how the NY Slimes, who have done everything to undercut the mission in Iraq are so bellicose to expand the war.

What is going on in Lebanon is exactly what we want. Another campaign in the on going War on Islamic Fascism

9 posted on 08/05/2006 5:19:29 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Fire Murtha Now! Spread the word. Support Diana Irey. http://www.irey.com/)
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To: NorCalRepub; Dark Skies; pissant
Nonsense. Doubtless if either of you were alive on Dec 8th, 1941 you would of been demanding the US invade both Japan and Germany by June 1942. We have neither the blood, treasure, political consensus nor the will to wage a massive war of conquest in the Middle East. Counter Insurgency is NOT Total War. The two are completely different missions with vastly different operational parameters. You are trying to employ Conventional Military Operational Doctrine to an Asymmetrical Warfare threat. It simply will not work

Take Lebanon for example.

There is a great deal of misplaced angst in Conservative circles about the the Israeli operations in Lebanon. In the first days of the war, Ralph Peters was all ready moaning, “ISRAEL is losing this war. For a lifelong Israel supporter, that's a painful thing to write “ This week Charles Krauthammer exclaimed Olmert’s “search for victory on the cheap has jeopardized not just the Lebanon operation but America's confidence in Israel as well” To quote Lady Thatcher, “This is no time to go wobbly” Conservatives!

The problem with these admirable men’s analysis is they are trying to force a Conventional Warfare paradigm onto an Asymmetrical warfare problem. That simply will not work. Start with our Revolution, Napoleon in Spain, Spain in South American, the US in Vietnam, Various European powers all over the world, the Nazis in Eastern Europe, the French then the Americans in Vietnam, the Russians in Afghanistan. A Conventional Warfare doctrine applied to an Asymmetrical problem always ends in the eventual bloody defeat for the Conventional Force.

Think of Israel as a boxer punching a sand bag. No matter how hard they hit, they cannot hold their fist to the bag forever. Thus as soon as they pull their fist back the weight of the sand forces the bag back to the same old shape. This time Israel, with the backing of the Bush Administration, is trying to find a way to empty the sand OUT of the bag so that when Israel's fist is removed, the bag does not simply revert to the same old form. It's not as dramatic or made for TV sexy but it DOES have the virtue of possible achieving a workable longer-term strategic change for Israel. Israel is going for the long game, a solution to a decade long cancer NOT a drama-queen, ego-feeding headline-grabbing military blitz. It would be utterly stupid for Israel to settle for just pruning back Hizbolla when they could possibly completely uproot it.

All the various "armchair Patton's" plans would accomplish is a lot of dead Jews for a short term. Hizbolla would simply bleed the Israelis while pulling back into sanctuary areas in Syria and northern Lebanon. Then when the Israelis could no longer stand the blood and treasure long term occupation was costing them, Hizbolla would simply flow back into the same positions they hold now. And in a few years from now the Israelis would face the same crises in Lebanon Like the US in Iraq, Israel seems to be trying for a long term FIX that uproots Hizbolla and creates a viable Lebanese government that can police its own territory. That is why the Israelis are interested in a NATO force to do in Lebanon what it is currently doing in Afghanistan. The UN has showed it simply is too corrupt and ineffective to manage peacekeeping duties. Israel, and the world, need a force that can keep out the Terrorists while the Lebanese build a viable nation-state that can provide long term stability. Thus the Israel and the US should be looking with interest to the French.

The French are the ideal choice because of their history with Lebanon. They have good troops with lots of peace keeping experience (Its their politics that are messed up, not their military). Being Lefties the Media will pretty much ignore the head cracking they need to do as peace keepers. They do not trigger the knee jerk hysteria British, American or Jewish troops would in the Arabs. For domestic consumption, the French can spin this mission as one to protect the Muslims, stopping the Israelis. France does not have any where near the existing military commitments that the US and Britain do, so they have the forces available to take this one. With France heading the mission Germany, Spain and the other reluctant nervous-nellies among the old Europe nations would have political coverage to get involved. The Israelis get a Neutral Zone and make one front in the WOT someone else's headache. It sends a message to Syria and Iran that the EU is not divided on controlling their terrorists’ proxy forces and adds pressure on Tehran to make a deal on the nuclear issue since they are diplomatically isolated. It would be also be impossible for domestic political reasons for the French to let the mission fail. In face of the success we are having in Afghanistan and Iraq, France needs to prove itself a serious world player. This mission thus would be seen as a test of France's Pan-Europeanism.

The $64 billion question is will the French do it? Source links:

"Israel's Lost Moment" Washington Post Friday, August 4, 2006; By Charles Kurthammer

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/03/AR2006080301258.html

"CAN ISRAEL WIN?" New York Post July 22, 2206. By Ralph Peters

10 posted on 08/05/2006 5:31:20 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Fire Murtha Now! Spread the word. Support Diana Irey. http://www.irey.com/)
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To: Dark Skies; NorCalRepub
Hypothetical Military Match Up. USA vrs the China/Iran/Syrian Axis. I will even add China as a potential Axis member.

Even if you multiply the CIA facts by a factor of the 5 on the absurd notion that they are successfully "hiding" their real military from us, the Iran/Syria Axis comes NO where near the US ALONE in Military power.

I am not even going to bother putting Israel, Japan, South Korea, India and the NATO countries on our side. The scale all ready tips so heavily to the US there is no reason to pile on.

This is JUST a comparison between the US and the Iran/Syrian Axis. For fun I will include Egypt and the Saudis as part of the Iran/Syrian Axis to show how absurd the "It's World War Three" babbling is.

http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/united_states/united_states_military.html


USA.


Military branches:
Army, Navy and Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard; note - Coast Guard administered in peacetime by the Department of Homeland Security, but in wartime reports to the Department of the Navy

Military service age and obligation:
18 years of age; 17 years of age with written parental consent (2006)

Manpower available for military service:
males age 18-49: 67,742,879
females age 18-49: 67,070,144 (2005 est.)

Manpower fit for military service:
males age 18-49: 54,609,050
females age 18-49: 54,696,706 (2005 est.)

Manpower reaching military service age annually:
males age 18-49: 2,143,873
females age 18-49: 2,036,201 (2005 est.)

Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$518.1 billion (FY04 est.) (2005 est.)

Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
4.06% (FY03 est.) (2005 est.)

***Snip***

http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/iran/iran_military.html

Iran.

Iran Military - 2006

Islamic Republic of Iran Regular Forces (Artesh): Ground Forces, Navy, Air Force (includes Air Defense); Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (Sepah-e Pasdaran-e Enqelab-e Eslami, IRGC): Ground Forces, Navy, Air Force, Qods Force (special operations), and Basij Force (Popular Mobilization Army); Law Enforcement Forces (2004)

Military service age and obligation:
18 years of age for compulsory military service; 16 years of age for volunteers; soldiers as young as 9 were recruited extensively during the Iran-Iraq War; conscript service obligation - 18 months (2004)

Manpower available for military service:
males age 18-49: 18,319,545
females age 18-49: 17,541,037 (2005 est.)

Manpower fit for military service:
males age 18-49: 15,665,725
females age 18-49: 15,005,597 (2005 est.)

Manpower reaching military service age annually:
males age 18-49: 862,056
females age 18-49: 808,044 (2005 est.)

Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$4.3 billion (2003 est.)

Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
3.3% (2003 est.)


****Snip*****

http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/syria/syria_military.html

Syria

Military branches:
Syrian Armed Forces: Syrian Arab Army, Syrian Arab Navy, Syrian Arab Air and Air Defense Force (includes Air Defense Command) (2005)

Military service age and obligation:
18 years of age for compulsory military service; conscript service obligation - 30 months (18 months in the Syrian Arab Navy); women are not conscripted but may volunteer to serve (2004)

Manpower available for military service:
males age 18-49: 4,356,413
females age 18-49: 4,123,339 (2005 est.)

Manpower fit for military service:
males age 18-49: 3,453,888
females age 18-49: 3,421,558 (2005 est.)

Manpower reaching military service age annually:
males age 18-49: 225,113
females age 18-49: 211,829 (2005 est.)

Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$858 million (FY00 est.); note - based on official budget data that may understate actual spending

Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
5.9% (FY00)

***Snip*****
http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/egypt/egypt_military.html

Egypt

Military branches:
Army, Navy, Air Force, Air Defense Command

Military service age and obligation:
18 years of age for conscript military service; three-year service obligation (2001)

Manpower available for military service:
males age 18-49: 18,347,560
females age 18-49: 17,683,904 (2005 est.)

Manpower fit for military service:
males age 18-49: 15,540,234
females age 18-49: 14,939,378 (2005 est.)

Manpower reaching military service age annually:
males age 18-49: 802,920
females age 18-49: 764,176 (2005 est.)

Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$2.44 billion (2003)

Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
3.4% (2004)

******Snip****

http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/saudi_arabia/saudi_arabia_military.html

Saudi Arabia

Military branches:
Land Forces (Army), Navy, Air Force, Air Defense Force, National Guard, Ministry of Interior Forces (paramilitary)

Military service age and obligation:
18 years of age (est.); no conscription (2004)

Manpower available for military service:
males age 18-49: 7,648,999
females age 18-49: 5,417,922 (2005 est.)

Manpower fit for military service:
males age 18-49: 6,592,709
females age 18-49: 4,659,347 (2005 est.)

Manpower reaching military service age annually:
males age 18-49: 247,334
females age 18-49: 234,500 (2005 est.)

Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$18 billion (2002)

****Snip******

href="http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/China/China_military.html">http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/China/China_military.html

China

Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
10% (2002)

Military branches:

People's Liberation Army (PLA): Ground Forces, Navy (includes marines and naval aviation), Air Force (includes Airborne Forces), and II Artillery Corps (strategic missile force); People's Armed Police (PAP); Reserve and Militia Forces (2006)

Military service age and obligation: 18-22 years of age for compulsory military service, with 24-month service obligation; no minimum age for voluntary service (all officers are volunteers); 17 years of age for women who meet requirements for specific military jobs (2004)

Manpower available for military service: males age 18-49: 342,956,265 females age 18-49: 324,701,244 (2005 est.)

Manpower fit for military service: males age 18-49: 281,240,272 females age 18-49: 269,025,517 (2005 est.)

Manpower reaching military service age annually: males age 18-49: 13,186,433 females age 18-49: 12,298,149 (2005 est.)

Military expenditures - dollar figure: $81.48 billion (2005 est.)

Military expenditures - percent of GDP: 4.3% (2005 est.)

11 posted on 08/05/2006 7:37:01 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Fire Murtha Now! Spread the word. Support Diana Irey. http://www.irey.com/)
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To: MNJohnnie

Thanks for the factual data.....too bad we have to be politically correct at this time and not bomb Iran back to the stone age.....but they sure are asking for it....


12 posted on 08/05/2006 7:58:16 PM PDT by NorCalRepub
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To: Dark Skies

Yer nuts. 2 conquered countries, a third who threw in the towel, Saudi Arabia and Yemen, of all places fighting against AL Qaeda. You need to get a hold of yourself.


13 posted on 08/05/2006 9:16:47 PM PDT by pissant
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To: NorCalRepub

We may still need to do that. But I think pulling the mullahs from spider holes is much better.


14 posted on 08/05/2006 9:19:57 PM PDT by pissant
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To: pissant

I agree with you...I was just humoring him...I don't agree with him all that much....too extreme...


15 posted on 08/05/2006 9:23:28 PM PDT by NorCalRepub
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To: NorCalRepub

WHo is the "him" you are referring to as being too extreme?


16 posted on 08/05/2006 9:27:19 PM PDT by pissant
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To: pissant
Yer nuts.

Well, I can't argue with that.

But in general, I think you and I are stressing two separate points. You are correct when you say that we trounce the enemy when we face it in a conventional military confrontation.

However, my point is this...in all those areas in the world where we have not faced the enemy militarily, it is still growing and in those areas where we have won militarily (Iraq and Afghanistan) the enemy (fundamental, radical, militant islam) is still alive and well. Furthermore, we don't even have a strategy for dealing with it. The enemy is not a country but a religion and I have yet to hear any world leader suggest how we are going to deal with radical islam (democracy sure as h$ll isn't the answer).

If you know of a strategy that I have either overlook or have not heard of, please advise.

17 posted on 08/06/2006 5:40:22 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: Dark Skies
OK. Here is the strategy. It's called the Bush Doctrine. It says that if you are a state that harbors and supports terrorists, then we will treat you the same as the terrorists. (More on that later)

So what was our doctrine regarding terrorism in the years prior to 9-11? It was, at best, to treat it as a crime. Each incident as separate, with no strategy to fight islamo-fascism at all. Our weak kneed responses to previous terror attacks emboldened the terrorists. The movement grew and thrived and plotted. Bin Laden even said that we were a paper tiger. He even declared war on the USA in 1997 and we did next to nothing. Instead you had gov'ts all over the arab and muslim world tolerating and in some cases even promoting the growth of the radicals, either because they shared their goals (Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, Syria), or it was easier & more convenient to buy them off and to not confront them (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, etc.). With this kind of world response to the islamo-terrorists, is it any wonder that it grew and thrived and raised gazillions of $$?

Now fast forward to now. How many govt's are still involved in the terrorist game? I would argue that only Iran is left standing as the unabashed enemy of the West. Syria, though full of vociferous denials about supporting terrorism, still supports and lets Hamas and hezbollah operate there. Iraq, though busy with a Sunni-Shia bloodletting, has vowed to be a strong ally in the WOT. And indeed, after the fall of Saddam, more terrorists have been killed in Iraq than any place in the world. The flypaper strategy worked. Terrorists from around the muslim world came to Iraq. Yes, they caused and continue to cause much damage, but Zarq's boys have been getting trounced, even being turned against by the local insurgents, to a large degree. So unless Iraq collapses, and it will not as long as we are there, terrorists will continue to be eradicated. In Afghanistan, the same thing. So that is two new govt's who no longer tolerate funding and training terrorists on there soil. And that does not include Kaddafi Duck, who decided to rejoin the world of nations and disavow terrorism and nuclear ambitions. In Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Kuwait, Jordan, Morocco, Egypt, and to some degree Pakistan, the Islamists have been getting hammered by gov't forces. And a successful Iraq in the heart of the ME will go a long way to stabilizing the entire region.

Now where have we been losing? In parts of Africa, Sudan and Somalia in particular, the islamic nutjobs have been making inroads. In some SE asian countries, such as Thailand and Indonesia, things are getting to be very unsteady and will need to be dealt with. But the number of countries aligned with the terrorists has shrunk to a very small handful. And as we continue to eliminate their sponsor states, it will only get harder for the terrorists to train, get weapons and coordinate plans and move money. Obviously, that alone does not eliminate terror cells, but its a great start. Having Iraq and Afghanistan killing terrorists rather than training them cannot brushed aside as irrelevant.

Iran will have to be dealt with, and after it is, the paper tiger of terrorism will greatly wither. The big caveat to all of this is if China or Russia decide its in their best interest to support radical islam to keep the America busy fighting it.

Democracy is certainly part of the long term answer. Not a phony bullshit democracy like in the Pali territories, where the terrorists are in charge no matter how you slice it, but a constitutional democracy, such as Afghanistan and Iraq have now, and that Turkey has had for many years. It could be a king and parliament or it could be a republic, it does not matter, as long as there are institutions in place to deal allow for stability and central authority and certain freedoms, they will survive.

The Bush Doctrine is working. The problem is that people expect instant results to a problem that has been festering for decades.

But just like communism, after it collapses, people that have been wallowing and handwringing (many conservatives) and people that think that the islamists are here to stay so we better appease and negotiate with them (all liberals), will then say "gee it was inevitable that the house of cards would collapse at any moment". They will say that not because they believed it for one second, but to deny Bush the credit, just like they did to Ronald Reagan when the cold war ended.

Cheers.
18 posted on 08/06/2006 7:03:32 AM PDT by pissant
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To: pissant

Excellent, meaty post. Will need to chew on it for a while.


19 posted on 08/06/2006 7:12:17 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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