Researchers Say Socialization No Longer an ''Issue''

Your argument is based purely on limited anecdotal evidence (e.g. your observation of one case, one family). Using the same line of reasoning, there are plenty of cases of homeschooled children who excel academically and are perfectly socially adjusted.

I can testify directly to a perfect example...my family. At the risk of sounding like I am tooting my own horn, I will tell you about our family. I am 20 years old, and am the oldest of three boys. I was homeschooled from Kindergarten to 11th grade (skipped my Senior year due to my completing all requirements) and recently graduated from a community college with a 4.0 GPA in Computer Science. I made the adjustment from a homeschool environment to the college classroom seamlessly. While at CC, I was very involved in extracurricular activities, and served as President of the Phi Theta Kappa Honor Society, Sophomore Class Representative to the Student Government Association, Treasurer of the History Club, and President of the Student Ambassador's Club. I was nominated to USA Today's All-Pennsylvania Academic Team for 2 Year Colleges, and my application scored the highest in the State of Pennsylvania. I also served in numerous miscellaneous positions on different committees during my time at the college. I have personally represented my college on many different occasions, addressing groups of individuals comprised of everyone from students and faculty to local businesspeople to state legislators. My high point was serving as the student speaker at my commencement. I have had no problems making friends and maintaining healthy relationships. I am currently engaged to a wonderful woman whom I plan to marry in 2008. In addition, I am starting at a state university in the fall, on a full tuition scholarship.

My two brothers also have had similar experiences. My middle brother is 19 and has completed a year at my alma mater (in Electronics Engineering Technology). He also has a 4.0 GPA, plenty of friends, a wonderful girlfriend, and is involved in many activities. My youngest brother is starting college this fall at the age of 16, after completing his high school requirements even earlier than I did. He is also well adjusted, and while he has his own group of friends, also feels very comfortable among those of his two brothers.

Again, I apologize if I seem like I am "tooting my own horn." I am simply trying to illustrate from a first hand perspective that you simply cannot condemn an entire institution based on an outside casual observation of one case.

In closing, your blanket statement that home schooled children have problems with communication skills is simply unfounded. I argue that in my case, I ended up with the ability to communicate comfortably with a wide variety of people and age groups, rather than simply my own peers.

One thing I will NEVER get used to is people such as yourself who get on here and spew forth blanket insults that everyone not providing their child with the education you deem appropriate is mentally ill, etc. etc. You never say where you were educated, but you really need to share it with all of us on here because you very obviously know everything and I just have to see what kind of place was able to inculcate you with all the information in the known world, which would be the only way one would be able to speak with such hubris.

An auto mechanic may one day want to be the boss and run his own business; if he doesn't have some very good math and english skills, I pity him.

There have been plenty of young men who started off just interested in the 'hardware', and as they got their skills honed, started thinking about doing other things. They learned their business skills and math skills as they needed them.

I'm not saying that they should ONLY learn their trade, but why keep them in school dead bored when they could be doing things about which they are passionate? Too many kids HATE high school because they don't see the point of it, and WAY too many of them drop out when they could be taught a valuable skill, which would serve them until they got more serious about furthering their education.

I suppose there are exceptions. I challenge any resonable parent to find one. If they do, they are likely charter or private schools.

Hey! I found one right here in my community. Top notch teachers, good extra curricular programs, caring students and excellent staff support. My rising junior loves her high school and would go no where else. She has NEVER seen drugs in the hallways, although she has heard kids talk about parties where drugs were. In the 6 years between my two girls, they have indeed heard or or seen a handful of fights, but they were broken up quickly by alert staff members. Yes, they have heard curse words. But, to be honest, they heard most of them from me first; I have a potty mouth at times, I work on it, but things slip through.

Their educational experience has been incredible. My younger took her first AP class as a sophomore--World History II--and earned a ** 5 ** on her AP test--which if you look on collegeboard.com you will see that WH is one of the hardest exams and only 10% score a 5. So, yeah, safe to say, she was educated well in that area.

I could go on and on about how great I think her school is, but it would probably bore most readers. But her experiences and high school are good enough though that every college we have visited has indicated they would offer significant money and one said up front, she'd probably get a full ride academic scholarship.

But, I've mentioned her experience before and you pooh-poohed it as my being out of touch etc, mocked it as a "blue ribbon" school (I don't even know what that is), and generally refuse to believe my experiences. You even referred to my daughters as "monsters" once. On the other hand, we are expected to take all of your experiences at pure face value.

I completely support anyone's right to homeschool. There are numerous cases in which that is the absolute best place for a child to be. But it is not the only way to educate a child successfully. Your children's path of early graduation and then community college at 12 or so makes me shudder with distaste. But, it was your choice and it worked for you. Great. My family's choices are working for us.

And we are not as you so haughtily stated .... too stupid, too lazy, too dysfunctional, too poor, too sick, too mental ill,too materialistic, too uncaring, too ignorant, etc

It seems to me that everyone on this thread has completely missed the point.

Every kid learns their base moral principles and behaviors from birth from their parents' (guardians')actions and teachings. By the time they are school-age, their morals should already be pretty secure.

It doesn't matter if little Johnny/Susie is going to be homeschooled or "institutionalized" in a public school- if the parents (or outside factors, I'll be generous) screw up the moral indoctrination, then the child will not be successful. Either homeschooling will enforce the bad behaviors, or public schooling will.

Bottom line: if the kid is messed up, it doesn't matter where he/she goes; he'll most likely end up messed up. Since most of the children in the country are schooled publicly, there are many more horror stories than from homeschooling.

If you are offered drugs or booze or anything of that nature, who says you have to accept? Again, going back to the basic principles that should have been installed at birth, is this morally wrong for me to do? Stand up for yourself.

All of those involved in such activities have made their own choice.

So you know, I am a rising Junior in High School. I am an extremely good student, I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs, nor have I ever been offered them.

Government schools in your community are likely age segregated. They are herded about like sheep to a timer. Children ride buses to and from them. Their school day is 6 or more hours long. After being confined for most of their waking day, they still have homework.

In government schools in your community there are alpha girls and bullies flying under the teacher's radar. Your children, if not actively involved or complicit in the the alpha girl emotional shredding or physical bullying, were witnesses to this abuse. As you stated, they were witnesses to fights. You have stated that parties with drugs were openly discussed. I am certain that after seeing and hearing this this they felt less safe both physically and emotionally.

What can I say about the "socialization" where parties with drugs are openly discussed and children come from a home with a mother with a "potty mouth"?

As Dr. Laura has pointed out all the high grades, or "AP" courses in the world are no substitute for morality, and I would add, physical and emotional safety.

While your girls are survivors, I can only wonder about the children are not the survivors. What about those children who are not in the AP courses and are now known to be in the stupid courses? What about their sense of self-esteem? What about the kids who weren't able to swim through the toxic waste of potty mouth, fights, and parties with drugs?

To those parents with children who weren't the survivors, who are drowning in the the toxic waste, I would say to them that their children would have been better off being homeschooled. To those parents whose children seem to be surviving, I would say that their children would have been better off not witnessing the destruction of human potential.

And we are not as you so haughtily stated .... too stupid, too lazy, too dysfunctional, too poor, too sick, too mental ill,too materialistic, too uncaring, too ignorant, etc

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Homeschooling will continue to grow and its success will become self evident. As this happens, people will say, "What? Please explain to me why you are institutionalizing your precious child?"

Those parents who institutionalize their child will be on the defensive. They will be explaining exactly why they needed institutionalization. They will be the parents who will need to explain why they aren't too lazy, too stupid, too ignorant, too dysfunctional, too uninformed, too lacking in self-confidence, too ill-educated themselves, too sick, etc.

As for you, SoftballMom, given the options available to you at that time, you made the best informed decision possible. When your children were starting out in school, the homeschool movement was in its infancy. Thankfully, your children survived. From your post, it is evident that many of their peers have not.

So my girls, while sitting at the lunch room table, heard about parties where drugs were used--so what? They both read the paper and hear about much worse going on. They make their choices and they take ownership of them. Neither were ever offered drugs, alcohol or cigarettes in school. They were offered these when in a part time job at one time or another. Both turned them down. Their moral character came through when they needed it. They learned this from home.

As far as the fights, I overspoke. Both told me within the last hour that they never actually saw a fight, they only heard of two that happened in another section of the building. The only fight they ever witnessed was at Kings Dominion when we were there on a family trip years ago. My bad.

As far as bullying, nope, neither were interested in that. They would both be considered "gamma" girls. I taught them from very young to be themselves, not worry about being popular and let peer pressure roll off their backs. If they saw bullying, I don't think it affected them overmuch as they are sweet girls who make an effort to include others into their conversations when at church gatherings or other social settings.

Neither has ever felt an unsafe moment at their high school, bus stop, bus ride, or at any school sponsored event. That is 100% 0 times. Their school is safe.

And what about those not in AP or gifted courses? What about them? Their parents made different choices than I did. I don't sit in judgement on them. What about those that didn't come from a background where their parents took them to church and raised them with a moral core--again what about them? Their parents made their own choices. I don't judge them.

Face it, there are kids that come out of the public school system every day that are upstanding citizens. There are disasters that come out of homeschooling situations. (Just this spring 2 homeschooled kids killed the parents of another--remember that one) There is a range on both sides, but the parents are more important than the school and have far more influence.

"Based on my personal experience..."

Yes, but I have personal experiences too. Lots of them At least 120 per day for 180 days a year for the past 11 years.

"I must say I was somewhat disturbed to see a FReeper hammered..."

No one hammered anyone. His point is valid (and I never said otherwise), in his circumstances, hence my inquiry at the end of my post about those circumstances. I was providing a counterpoint and asking for further explanation. He declined, and I dropped it. That's not hammering.

I just thought it was a bit hasty to blame the perceived social deficiencies he spoke of on the fact that his nieces/nephews had been homeschooled, in light of the numerous occasions I have had to observe home-schooled and non home-schooled children, often in the same environment. IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, the homeschooled children are more mannerly, respectful and mindful. Just my personal experience however.

But without more information, I don't think his point was as strong or convincing as it could have been, hence the request for clarification. From what he said, however, it sounds like his homeschooled nieces and nephews are the exception to the rule, and that's what I stated.

"I'm just saying that while I believe that home schooling is right for a lot of parents/children, I can see where in situations where the parents overly isolate their children from others, denying them of social skills and/or athletic event participation, or have poor teaching skills, that you are going to find stories of children not turning out as we would hope from a home schooling environment."

Right. As with any experience, the quality of it depends on the execution. In my experience, kids who grow up with adults as role models for proper social behavior learn the right way to conduct themselves far more often than kids who are exposed, daily, to countless examples of disrespect, disdain of authority, etc. That's a conclusion that I draw from my own personal observation, subject, of course, to counterpoints from others with their own different experiences. That's what FR is all about, after all.

But believe me when I say I had no intention of stepping on anyone's toes, and if I did, my apologies.

You must've skimmed my posts. I was referring to observations of many of them being odd, weird, etc. I'm actually a proponent for homeschooling. I'm just not a freak about it being the perfect way to go like some seem to believe. Also, I was making an observation. I've also seen some very wonderful homeschooled children. We had a young man come speak before my D.A.R. group (a homeschooled young man)and he was so articulate, eloquent, etc. I loved the kid.

The only reason I even posted comments on this is I USED to be all gung ho about homeschooling and the truth is if my son was small now, I'd probably go that route (okay, here's my but monkey), but....... all these people I know who have been homeschooling their kids now have older kids and I started noticing a little trend with many of them (note the key word here - "many")and that is why I mentioned it.

For whatever it's worth.

Just so you know where I stand.

Oh, no, I understand completely. There are a lot of people here who "support homeschooling, but..."

The other guy said he was "worried" about his nieces and nephews and that he "fears" for them so much that he cannot even bring himself to discuss it in detail. In the end, it turns out he just thinks they're "odd".

As neither of you can specifically tell us what you mean by "odd", I can only guess it's the same way the unpopular kids in school are seen as "odd". The kids who, back in my day, were called "nerds".

For example, homeschooled kids don't always wear the latest fads in clothes or haircuts, and generally they don't seem to care what the other kids are wearing, either. And usually they don't have the same mannerisms as schoolkids do - that's a given. I have yet to see a homeschool teen greet another with, "Yo, yo, whazzup," for example.

So I'm sure other people do see those things as "odd". That's all I can figure out.

"Hey! I found one right here in my community. Top notch teachers, good extra curricular programs, caring students and excellent staff support. My rising junior loves her high school and would go no where else."

You're very fortunate. Some people do win the public education lottery. I would argue that there are far more who don't.

We all base our perspectives on part on our own experiences. I've been blessed (or cursed) to have had many personal experiences with the government schools. My family moved a lot so I got to go to many different government schools. They ran the gamut from the absolutely terrifying to the reasonably competent. I had teachers who were stunningly incompetent, and others whom I still admire to this day.

The problem is, the government schools are at best a crapshoot, and the parent has little say in either the selection of specific teachers or the curriculum. There is also the simple logistical challenge of teaching 20-30 children at one time. Effective education *does* have something to do with the amount of time spent in individual instruction with each child. Even the NEA beats the drum of reducing class sizes.

Homeschooling, even in huge families, has a logistical advantage in that more individual time can be spent with each child. The parents choose the curriculum. The parents are the teacher.

There is no such thing as a panacea, and I'm the first to acknowledge that there is a need for government schools. In much the same way I acknowledge the need for prisons.

The question is whether the government schools should be educators of first or last resort. I'm clearly in the "last resort" camp. Most of the public and probably most FReepers would disagree with me. They send their kids to what they perceive as "good" government schools. I've gone to "good" government schools personally, and worked in them from time to time as an adult. And I could tell you some tales about those experiences. And I think I might do that more often on these threads.

Thanks for the post, and you're right: the point you make hasn't been discussed.

With respect, I disagree with you. What you say about the importance of having a base in moral principles is largely true. But there's also the issue of opportunity. The simple truth, which you actually implicitly acknowledge in your post, is that you need an opportunity to be offered drugs, booze, or other vices in order to engage in bad behaviors. Children who are homeschooled just don't get the same exposure to those opportunities that children who go to the government schools do.

I'd ask you to think for a moment. At your school, if you wanted to say, use illegal drugs, would you know who to go to obtain those from? Would you know what group of peers you should be with if you wanted that information? I bet you do.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.