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NASA Study Finds World Warmth Edging Ancient Levels
NASA GISS ^ | September 26, 2006 | NASA GISS

Posted on 09/26/2006 7:30:57 AM PDT by cogitator

A new study by NASA scientists finds that the world's temperature is reaching a level that has not been seen in thousands of years.

The study, led by James Hansen of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, N.Y., along with scientists from other organizations concludes that, because of a rapid warming trend over the past 30 years, the Earth is now reaching and passing through the warmest levels in the current interglacial period, which has lasted nearly 12,000 years. An "interglacial period" is a time in the Earth's history when the area of Earth covered by glaciers was similar or smaller than at the present time. Recent warming is forcing species of plants and animals to move toward the north and south poles.

The study used temperatures around the world taken during the last century. Scientists concluded that these data showed the Earth has been warming at the remarkably rapid rate of approximately 0.36° Fahrenheit (0.2° Celsius) per decade for the past 30 years.

"This evidence implies that we are getting close to dangerous levels of human-made pollution," said Hansen. In recent decades, human-made greenhouse gases have become the largest climate change factor. Greenhouse gases trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere and warm the surface. Some greenhouse gases, which include water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, and ozone, occur naturally, while others are due to human activities.

The study notes that the world's warming is greatest at high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere, and it is larger over land than over ocean areas. The enhanced warming at high latitudes is attributed to effects of ice and snow. As the Earth warms, snow and ice melt, uncovering darker surfaces that absorb more sunlight and increase warming, a process called a positive feedback. Warming is less over ocean than over land because of the great heat capacity of the deep-mixing ocean, which causes warming to occur more slowly there.

Hansen and his colleagues in New York collaborated with David Lea and Martin Medina-Elizade of UCSB to obtain comparisons of recent temperatures with the history of the Earth over the past million years. The California researchers obtained a record of tropical ocean surface temperatures from the magnesium content in the shells of microscopic sea surface animals, as recorded in ocean sediments.

One of the findings from this collaboration is that the Western Equatorial Pacific and Indian Oceans are now as warm as, or warmer than, at any prior time in the Holocene. The Holocene is the relatively warm period that has existed for almost 12,000 years, since the end of the last major ice age. The Western Pacific and Indian Oceans are important because, as these researchers show, temperature change there is indicative of global temperature change. Therefore, by inference, the world as a whole is now as warm as, or warmer than, at any time in the Holocene.

According to Lea, "The Western Pacific is important for another reason, too: it is a major source of heat for the world's oceans and for the global atmosphere."

In contrast to the Western Pacific, the researchers find that the Eastern Pacific Ocean has not shown an equal magnitude of warming. They explain the lesser warming in the East Pacific Ocean, near South America, as being due to the fact this region is kept cool by upwelling, rising of deeper colder water to shallower depths. The deep ocean layers have not yet been affected much by human-made warming.

Hansen and his colleagues suggest that the increased temperature difference between the Western and Eastern Pacific may boost the likelihood of strong El Ninos, such as those of 1983 and 1998. An El Nino is an event that typically occurs every several years when the warm surface waters in the West Pacific slosh eastward toward South America, in the process altering weather patterns around the world.

The most important result found by these researchers is that the warming in recent decades has brought global temperature to a level within about one degree Celsius (1.8°F) of the maximum temperature of the past million years. According to Hansen, "That means that further global warming of 1 degree Celsius defines a critical level. If warming is kept less than that, effects of global warming may be relatively manageable. During the warmest interglacial periods the Earth was reasonably similar to today. But if further global warming reaches 2 or 3 degrees Celsius, we will likely see changes that make Earth a different planet than the one we know. The last time it was that warm was in the middle Pliocene, about three million years ago, when sea level was estimated to have been about 25 meters (80 feet) higher than today."

Global warming is already beginning to have noticeable effects in nature. Plants and animals can survive only within certain climatic zones, so with the warming of recent decades many of them are beginning to migrate poleward. A study that appeared in Nature Magazine in 2003 found that 1700 plant, animal and insect species moved poleward at an average rate of 6 kilometers (about 4 miles) per decade in the last half of the 20th century.

That migration rate is not fast enough to keep up with the current rate of movement of a given temperature zone, which has reached about 40 kilometers (about 25 miles) per decade in the period 1975 to 2005. "Rapid movement of climatic zones is going to be another stress on wildlife," according to Hansen. "It adds to the stress of habitat loss due to human developments. If we do not slow down the rate of global warming, many species are likely to become extinct. In effect we are pushing them off the planet."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: climate; extinction; globalwarming; habitat; ice; interglacial; paleoclimate; snow; trends; warming
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Because there are already 213 articles on Google News about this, I thought it would be prudent to read the press release FIRST, unfiltered by the media.

The linked press release includes images with captions. I did not include them in this posting.

1 posted on 09/26/2006 7:30:58 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: DaveLoneRanger

** ping **


2 posted on 09/26/2006 7:31:15 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: cogitator

Exactly.

Thousands of years ago there were no SUVs to blame.


3 posted on 09/26/2006 7:36:26 AM PDT by BenLurkin ("The entire remedy is with the people." - W. H. Harrison)
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To: cogitator
Scientists concluded that these data showed the Earth has been warming at the remarkably rapid rate of approximately 0.36° Fahrenheit (0.2° Celsius) per decade for the past 30 years.

Oh my God, that's a little over 1 degree in 30 years. I thought it was hot in here. Hey is that a triceratops? Forget about the Muzzies who want to kill us. What are we going to do when the dinosaurs return? Panic now, before it's too late!!!

4 posted on 09/26/2006 7:37:03 AM PDT by rhombus
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To: cogitator
now reaching and passing through the warmest levels in the current interglacial period, which has lasted nearly 12,000 years.

Or, there is this story:

Earth Headed for Warmest Temps in a Million Yearsl

Drive-by climatologists. They just want their name in the paper.

5 posted on 09/26/2006 7:37:08 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The broken wall, the burning roof and tower. And Agamemnon dead.)
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To: cogitator
NASA isn't saying what humans did anciently to mitigate "global warming".

There are plenty of leftists, and supporters of big and Bigger government, and doogooders who are willing to tell us how to mitigate it today. Oddly, nor maybe not so oddly, all their plans have a common thread: reduced liberty, increased costs and increased central control over the lives of the average person.
6 posted on 09/26/2006 7:38:17 AM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: cogitator

"at any prior time in the Holocene"

So things have been getting warmer since the end of the last Ice Age.

Will they get warmer yet as the Milankovitch cycle continues?


7 posted on 09/26/2006 7:48:11 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: cogitator
If we do not slow down the rate of global warming, many species are likely to become extinct. In effect we are pushing them off the planet.

Author’s implied logic chain:

Premise: The earth’s climate is becoming warmer than it should from natural processes.
Premise: This warming is the result of human activity.
Conclusion: Changing human activity will stop global warming.

This syllogism is invalid as well as unsound from a number of perspectives. First, the major premise contains an unproven assumption that the current postulated warming is not part of a natural statistical variation. Second, the minor premise is unproven and, hence, the conclusion is potentially false. Third, the conclusion is not inevitable as, even if the second premise were true, it may be too late to reverse any trend or, perhaps, a natural mechanism will mitigate the situation such as a increase in plant life (like algae) to absorb and convert CO2 or other green house gases.

Author’s implied logic chain:

Premise: Global warming is bad.
Premise: Changing human activity will stop global warming.
Conclusion: Prudence demands implementing this change immediately.

This syllogism is also invalid and unsound from a number of perspectives. First, as noted above, there is no concrete indication that global warming will lead to catastrophic or deleterious effects. In fact, ice core drillings have indicated that the earth has been warmer as well as cooler than it is now a number of times in the past without catastrophe. Second, the minor premise is faulty as noted above. Finally, the conclusion ignores the deleterious impacts on humanity of the proposed changes that are speculated to mitigate the problem without the proof that the proposed changes would do anything to lessen global warming.
8 posted on 09/26/2006 7:58:53 AM PDT by Lucky Dog
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To: cogitator

The weather is more the way it is today than it has ever been before.


9 posted on 09/26/2006 8:15:56 AM PDT by NaughtiusMaximus (Aside from abortion, perversion, sedition and corruption, what do the Democrats stand for?)
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To: cogitator

Can Someone link me to one or two articles that take the point of view there is no global warming or at least not caused by us humans or SUVs. My daughter is in college and is reading Al Gore's book. I want to send her other points of view. It won't help but a least I will give it a try.


10 posted on 09/26/2006 8:19:48 AM PDT by cynicalman
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To: cynicalman
These two books are good. If you want articles (more digestible) you could search the net for articles that discuss these books:

"State of Fear" by Michael Crichton
"Skeptical Environmentalist: Measuring the Real State of the World" by Bjorn Lomborg, Bjern Lomberg

11 posted on 09/26/2006 8:31:22 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The broken wall, the burning roof and tower. And Agamemnon dead.)
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To: cogitator
A study that appeared in Nature Magazine in 2003 found that 1700 plant, animal and insect species moved poleward at an average rate of 6 kilometers (about 4 miles) per decade in the last half of the 20th century.

So many points to discuss....I'll just pick one.

A specices (as a whole) moved poleward by a total of 20 miles in the past 50 years? How would you go about measuring something like that? And, how would it be relevant?

More Global Warming nonsense. James Hansen, irregardless of his credentials, is one of the larger Chicken Littles out there.

12 posted on 09/26/2006 8:32:45 AM PDT by wbill
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To: cogitator

So? We have been comming out of an Ice Age for what 10-12,000 years. It would only be natural for warming to be the highest in thousands of years. If you look at the big picture as I have seen on some graph's this is nothing.


13 posted on 09/26/2006 8:47:47 AM PDT by Parley Baer
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To: cogitator; texianyankee; JayB; ElkGroveDan; markman46; palmer; Bahbah; Paradox; FOG724; ...
(((GLOBAL WARMING PING)))



You have been pinged because of your interest in environmentalism, alarmist wackos, mainstream media doomsday hype, and other issues pertaining to global warming.
Freep-mail me to get on or off: Add me! / Remove me
Please ping me to all note-worthy threads on global warming.



Of course, the Sun is more active than it has been for a millennium too.
14 posted on 09/26/2006 8:51:40 AM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (Lord, help me to be the Christian conservative that liberals fear I am.)
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To: DBrow
Will they get warmer yet as the Milankovitch cycle continues?

I wonder sometimes whether scientists or eco-warriors have ever heard of The Milankovitch Cycles.

According to the three cycles the northern Hemisphere currently should be due to return to glacial levels, ice core sediments also show that a warming spike was reached just before previous glacial epochs took hold.

15 posted on 09/26/2006 8:53:44 AM PDT by snowman_returns (beware!....once a lefty, always a lefty.)
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To: cogitator

Heard that NASA guy again this morning pushing his retired-guy agenda. Kind of reminds one of retired guys who appear on the Art Bell Show with their tales of captured UFOs in the mountains.


16 posted on 09/26/2006 8:56:01 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: cogitator
The most important result found by these researchers is that the warming in recent decades has brought global temperature to a level within about one degree Celsius (1.8°F) of the maximum temperature of the past million years

Also the most misleading result. They are comparing precise measurements from the present with very imprecise and smoothed measurements from the past. All the spikes like the one of the last 30 years disappear when the temperature proxy only takes measurements every century or 1000 years and averages decades or centuries worth of variation into that measurement.

17 posted on 09/26/2006 9:04:16 AM PDT by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: BenLurkin

yea, but which Bush family member was in office?
And what was Haliburton doing @ the time!?!?


18 posted on 09/26/2006 9:09:21 AM PDT by PissAndVinegar (do you need the /sarc?)
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To: cynicalman
Lots of global warming skeptic links : http://meteo.lcd.lu/globalwarming/
19 posted on 09/26/2006 9:10:17 AM PDT by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: RightWhale

Hansen is supposed to be taken seriously because he converted to global warming alarmist after looking at the data as a skeptical scientist. It's easily seen to be BS when looking at his statements about climate zones moving and stress. He obviously knows nothing about the science, just wants to sound an alarm.


20 posted on 09/26/2006 9:14:34 AM PDT by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: palmer

His tone of voice is exactly what grandfathers develop from explaining to grandkids why grass is green and the sky is blue and where the world came from even though the kids world extends to the street in front of their house and the bus ride to school. It is the 'I am being sincere' tone. All the senior Art Bell guests have that tone.


21 posted on 09/26/2006 9:20:43 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: palmer

Between 1960 and 1963, if you looked up the temperature at Tyndall AFB on a given day, there is a high probability that I was the guy reading the thermometer; our temperature shelter was located on a hangar roof which housed the observation tower directly across from the ATC tower between the runways.

Most stations were located at approximately 6 feet above ground level for convenience and standardization.

We switched to electronic devices in 1962 and no longer made the trip down the steps to read the old mercury thermometers.

Since then most of the gauges have been automated and the majority worldwide now are largely unmanned.

There are a host of variables also subject to modernization that are largely smoothed by the sheer numbers of observation points all using instruments that are rarely calibrated.

Thirty years is but a blink in the eye of time.


22 posted on 09/26/2006 9:23:14 AM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: snowman_returns
Lots of scienists know about the M cycles. I read lots of papers about "paleoclimate" and the longer-range papers all discuss Milankovitch. There are many papers about how well the fit is and why the 100 ky resonance is there.

Global Warming enthusiasts generally only use data for a few hundred years if that. The current flap about it being warmer in the past is supposed to strike fear in us, I think, but logically, if it was warmer in the past than now, does that not indicate cooling, and we may be getting back to normal?

The goal imo is global agrarian socialism and climate is just a way to get there. Once we have global agrarian socialism we'll stay there for at least the thousand years Marx wanted.
23 posted on 09/26/2006 9:28:16 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: ClearCase_guy; cynicalman
If you read "State of Fear", you also need to read the scientific view of Crichton's book:

Michael Crichton's State of Confusion

Michael Crichton’s State of Confusion II: Return of the Science

24 posted on 09/26/2006 9:54:31 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: BenLurkin
Thousands of years ago there were no SUVs to blame.

And it's been a relatively stable interglacial climate up until now, too.

25 posted on 09/26/2006 9:55:38 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: rhombus
Oh my God, that's a little over 1 degree in 30 years.

0.2 C in 30 years is 1/3 of the total global temperature increase (approximately) from 1900-2000.

26 posted on 09/26/2006 9:57:16 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: theBuckwheat
There are plenty of leftists, and supporters of big and Bigger government, and doogooders who are willing to tell us how to mitigate it today. Oddly, nor maybe not so oddly, all their plans have a common thread: reduced liberty, increased costs and increased central control over the lives of the average person.

And that approach won't work. What is needed is increased efficiency with existing energy technology and new energy sources (as well as upgrades to existing and proven technologies, like nuclear power).

27 posted on 09/26/2006 10:00:49 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: DBrow
Will they get warmer yet as the Milankovitch cycle continues?

Well, the problem is that this particular interglacial didn't seem particularly influenced by Milankovitch forcing, and therefore has exhibited very stable temperatures. So the only real forcing that might cause (and appears to be causing) increasing temperatures is increasing greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere.

28 posted on 09/26/2006 10:02:24 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: Lucky Dog
First, the major premise contains an unproven assumption that the current postulated warming is not part of a natural statistical variation.

There are many indications that the current warming trend is not due to natural variation (primarily).

Conclusion: Changing human activity will stop global warming.

Hansen is actually a believer in alternate energy and new technology as the best way to address the situation.

Conclusion: Prudence demands implementing this change immediately.

Hansen has expressed the viewpoint that humanity, collectively, has a decade or so to start doing something substantial about global warming or irreversible changes with the potential to induce significant-to-severe climate alteration in the future will become much more probable.

In fact, ice core drillings have indicated that the earth has been warmer as well as cooler than it is now a number of times in the past without catastrophe.

Define "catastrophe" in this context. For the glacial-interglacial era, there have only been a few short periods during prior interglacials that were slightly warmer than now -- without the higher CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere that will contribute to even higher temperatures. So the Earth may be on the verge of entering an unprecedented climate state.

29 posted on 09/26/2006 10:08:35 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: snowman_returns
According to the three cycles the northern Hemisphere currently should be due to return to glacial levels, ice core sediments also show that a warming spike was reached just before previous glacial epochs took hold.

A paper published in Science indicated that the expected next entry into a glacial epoch, based on Milankovitch forcing, is 50,000 years or so off.

Milankovitch cycles

"More recent work by Berger and Loutre suggests that the current warm climate may last another 50,000 years." Citation: Berger A, Loutre MF (2002). "Climate: An exceptionally long interglacial ahead?". Science 297 (5585): 1287-1288.DOI:10.1126/science.1076120.

30 posted on 09/26/2006 10:11:29 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: palmer
Also the most misleading result.

I agree and I think that this was done to attract attention. The more immediate concern is the 0.2 C rise in the past 30 years. If you are going to compare to temperatures over the whole past million years, you have to address the time-scale of various forms of variability.

31 posted on 09/26/2006 10:13:11 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: cogitator
This report is a study in contradictions and assumptions; assumptions made on information that is, by all scientific acknowledgement, less that all that needs to be known. The "scientific" models are built on data that the scientists know has gaps and complete holes in places, in some areas that they know as major factors in earth heat generation and cycles.

"This evidence implies that we are getting close to dangerous levels of human-made pollution," said Hansen. In recent decades, human-made greenhouse gases have become the largest climate change factor. Greenhouse gases trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere and warm the surface. Some greenhouse gases, which include water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, and ozone, occur naturally, while others are due to human activities."

Contradictions that produce false claims: (a)"human-made greenhouse gases have become the largest climate change factor"; (b)"greenhouse gases which include water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide and ozone, while others are due to human activities"; however (c)water vapor is the largest component of "greenhouse gases" responsible for climate change and (d)most atmospheric water vapor is not "human made" and humans have almost zero ability to control it. See: http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

"The study notes that the world's warming is greatest at high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere, and it is larger over land than over ocean areas. The enhanced warming at high latitudes is attributed to effects of ice and snow. As the Earth warms, snow and ice melt, uncovering darker surfaces that absorb more sunlight and increase warming, a process called a positive feedback. Warming is less over ocean than over land because of the great heat capacity of the deep-mixing ocean, which causes warming to occur more slowly there."

The above statement is not science or it is terribly bad communication. The atmosphere and the oceans circulate any and all earth warming or cooling. Yes, there are temperature differences, due to the specifics of a particular location such as latitude (closer to the poles or closer to the equator), altitude (elevation above sea level), path of prevailing jet-stream and trade wind patterns and other factors. But, the description in the preceding paragraph is a description of affects, not causes. The northern latitudes are not "warming" because the snow and ice are melting, exposing more land. The snow and ice are melting because it is warming there. The heat that is absorbed does contribute to warming ground temperatures, but it does not contribute immensely to warmer atmospheric temperatures and would cease to be a factor if (and when) atmospheric temperatures drop.

What has actually been observed in the northernmost latitudes is areas of snow and ice melt nearest the oceans (like Greenland and Antarctica) which has (a)reduced glaciers at the waters edge and melted snow nearest the oceans, and (b)produced greater local water vapor which when meeting the atmosphere has produced greater snow fall, which has produced much deeper and denser snow packs inland, which in affect is (c)building the makings of the next phase of glacial expansion when the warming cycle recedes again.

"The California researchers obtained a record of tropical ocean surface temperatures from the magnesium content in the shells of microscopic sea surface animals, as recorded in ocean sediments......One of the findings .........is that the Western Equatorial Pacific and Indian Oceans are now as warm as, or warmer than, at any prior time in the Holocene" - the Holocene is our current "relatively warm period that has existed for almost 12,000 years, since the end of the last major ice age. The Western Pacific and Indian Oceans are important because, as these researchers show, temperature change there is indicative of global temperature change."

Here where the science is slipping up. The oceans cover 2/3 of the earth. What happens in and under the oceans and between the oceans and the atmosphere is 2/3 of the climate story but probably less than 10% of the known data. Why? The earth, through its molten core, its magnetic field, its tectonic activity (shifting plates of land sliding around the earth) is a huge heat generator and dispenser. Most of that heat, from earthquakes, to volcanoes and millions of fissures, from tiny to immense, is dispensed under the oceans, absorbed by ocean water and transported to the atmosphere (and back) in the form of water vapor. Which, the link above has already told you is more dense lately, and the largest contributor to "global warming". And yet, that activity is not constant in its severity or its distribution. And, this part of the science is the weakest part in terms of data to represent this activity.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060727180622.htm

http://www.mpg.de/english/illustrationsDocumentation/documentation/pressReleases/2003/pressRelease20030718/index.html

"According to Lea, 'The Western Pacific is important for another reason, too: it is a major source of heat for the world's oceans and for the global atmosphere." In contrast to the Western Pacific, the researchers find that the Eastern Pacific Ocean has not shown an equal magnitude of warming. They explain the lesser warming in the East Pacific Ocean, near South America, as being due to the fact this region is kept cool by upwelling, rising of deeper colder water to shallower depths. The deep ocean layers have not yet been affected much by human-made warming.

And yet that explanation should also hold true for the northeastern Pacific, but it does not, because it is warmer than the eastern Pacific in the south and warmer than the western Pacific. Since the water and atmospheric flows are generally west to east (caused by the earth's rotation), what is under the middle of the northern Pacific that makes it warmer, and thus increases the northern Pacific's contribution of water vapor - the largest green house gas?

32 posted on 09/26/2006 10:16:12 AM PDT by Wuli
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To: cogitator
Hansen is actually a believer in alternate energy and new technology as the best way to address the situation.

One believes in a theological proposition. Scientific judgments are properly based upon facts and logic not belief.

My point is, very simply, that there is insufficient evidence that so-called, global warming is anything other than a naturally occurring phenomenon. Consequently, it is both premature and unfounded to assume that humankind can do much, if anything, to either mitigate, or exacerbate it.

Hansen has expressed the viewpoint…

As it is based upon unproven supposition as to the causes of so-called global warming (if such even exists), Hansen’s viewpoint is scientifically extraneous and irrelevant.

For the glacial-interglacial era, there have only been a few short periods during prior interglacials that were slightly warmer than now --

This statement, alone, logically destroys the argument that so-called global warming is, conclusively and exclusively, the result of human activity. If the global temperatures at any time prior to the industrial revolution were ever equal to, or warmer than the present, then there are obviously natural mechanisms which were responsible for that increase and could be so, again, in the present.

So the Earth may be on the verge of entering an unprecedented climate state.

Then, again, it may not…
33 posted on 09/26/2006 10:42:45 AM PDT by Lucky Dog
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To: cogitator
"this particular interglacial didn't seem particularly influenced by Milankovitch forcing,"

Previous interglacials have been measured using sediment strata which average results considerably.

The data for this interglacial is much more recent and for hundreds of years has had direct measurement. We also are blessed with measurements of solar output, which is sparse for other cycles.

It could be that the "stability" we enjoy is the change of slope from positive to negative at the top of the curve.

I've read nothing to suggest that this interglacial is any different from the others in terms of Milankovitch forcing.

What have you seen to support lack of orbital forcing?
34 posted on 09/26/2006 10:55:39 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: Wuli
however (c)water vapor is the largest component of "greenhouse gases" responsible for climate change and (d)most atmospheric water vapor is not "human made"

Water vapour: feedback or forcing?

What happens in and under the oceans and between the oceans and the atmosphere is 2/3 of the climate story but probably less than 10% of the known data. Why? The earth, through its molten core, its magnetic field, its tectonic activity (shifting plates of land sliding around the earth) is a huge heat generator and dispenser. Most of that heat, from earthquakes, to volcanoes and millions of fissures, from tiny to immense, is dispensed under the oceans, absorbed by ocean water and transported to the atmosphere (and back) in the form of water vapor.

The temperature of the global water column (from 0-3,000 meters) has been measured at numerous points around the world. A compilation of this data (by Levitus) indicated a clear warming of the water column, with most of the warming at the surface and just a little penetrating to depth, as would be expected. Heat from volcanic sources is negligible as a contribution to warming or the water vapor "budget".

And yet that explanation should also hold true for the northeastern Pacific, but it does not, because it is warmer than the eastern Pacific in the south and warmer than the western Pacific. Since the water and atmospheric flows are generally west to east (caused by the earth's rotation), what is under the middle of the northern Pacific that makes it warmer, and thus increases the northern Pacific's contribution of water vapor - the largest green house gas?

There isn't a lot of upwelling in the northeastern Pacific. There's a little on the PacNW and California coast, but not nearly as much as the Peru Upwelling.

35 posted on 09/26/2006 11:02:42 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: cogitator
"0.2 C in 30 years is 1/3 of the total global temperature increase (approximately) from 1900-2000."

And 30 years is about 1/3 of the time between 1900 and 2000. Your point?

Temperatures are simply returning to the norm they were at 1000 years ago before the Little Ice Age. One study of the Milankovitch cycles by Berger and Loutre predicts the current warm climate may last another 50,000 years.

36 posted on 09/26/2006 11:06:26 AM PDT by Justa (Politically Correct is morally wrong.)
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To: Lucky Dog
My point is, very simply, that there is insufficient evidence that so-called, global warming is anything other than a naturally occurring phenomenon.

Your point is incorrect.

Attribution of recent climate change

A quote from one of the many cited articles: "A recent paper (Estimation of natural and anthropogenic contributions to twentieth century temperature change, Tett SFB et al., JGR 2002), says that "Our analysis suggests that the early twentieth century warming can best be explained by a combination of warming due to increases in greenhouse gases and natural forcing, some cooling due to other anthropogenic forcings, and a substantial, but not implausible, contribution from internal variability. In the second half of the century we find that the warming is largely caused by changes in greenhouse gases, with changes in sulphates and, perhaps, volcanic aerosol offsetting approximately one third of the warming."

If the global temperatures at any time prior to the industrial revolution were ever equal to, or warmer than the present, then there are obviously natural mechanisms which were responsible for that increase and could be so, again, in the present.

"Could be responsible" does not mean that they are responsible. Please read the link that I provided. The scientists have assessed the contributions of natural factors and the assessment indicates that natural factors are insufficient to produce the major part of the observed warming trend.

37 posted on 09/26/2006 11:08:14 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: cogitator

The climate has been stable my Arse. Climate has always had its fluctuations. Did you forget about the Little Ice Age? Also, Greenland was much warmer back when the Viking settled there than it is now.


38 posted on 09/26/2006 11:17:37 AM PDT by ohioman
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To: DBrow
First this chart (based on Vostok ice core data):

The current interglacial is the blue zone starting about 10,000 years BP. It's fairly obvious from this chart that the interglacial temperature pattern was "spikier" in the previous interglacials than the current one. (And if this data is believed, then it appears that the peak temperatures of previous interglacials were somewhat higher than present, so I don't know if Hansen is taking a more global view. This is, after all, ultimately representative primarily of Antarctic temperatures with an overlying global pattern).

Anyway, go to this article:

Milankovitch cycles

and read the "Present Conditions" section. If you're really intrigued, you may want to try and get the Berger and Loutre paper, reference 8. This was an important paper and I wish it was available for free online, but I can't find it anywhere.

39 posted on 09/26/2006 11:17:50 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: ohioman
Did you forget about the Little Ice Age?

No. The Holocene climate is very stable compared to other interglacials. See the chart in the post above this one.

40 posted on 09/26/2006 11:18:47 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: Justa
"0.2 C in 30 years is 1/3 of the total global temperature increase (approximately) from 1900-2000."

And 30 years is about 1/3 of the time between 1900 and 2000. Your point?

Point one: I make mistakes. Point two: The trend is 0.2 C per decade, so 0.2 C in 10 years is 1/3 of the total global temperature increase in the 20th century. Or, to put it another way, 0.6 C in the past 30 years is approximately the same increase in global temperature observed in the 20th century.

41 posted on 09/26/2006 11:23:59 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: cogitator
0.2 C in 30 years is 1/3 of the total global temperature increase (approximately) from 1900-2000.

....and that makes perfect sense. If the global temperature rose 0.6 C in 100 years, then it would rise 0.2 C in 33 1/3 years. So it's increased that much in 30 years instead of 33 1/3 years, I don't see that as significant.

42 posted on 09/26/2006 11:32:28 AM PDT by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: cogitator
I don't see quite the same thing in the temperature portion of the chart. The initial slope of the last interglacial is smoother than the initial slope of the current one. The two previous ones were similar in initial slope but did not seem to last as long as the last one. Three interglacials ago has the same spikes on the rising slope as this one did.

As for this one, it seems like the initial phase has lasted longer than the last one as it has not flattened out- it's still changing, while last time by now it had stabilized.

I'll look for the paper, it sounds interesting.

If I were to take a WAG it does look like this interglacial will be longer than the last based on what it's done so far, but there's no way to predict (and probably no way to carry a prediction forward by 20,000 years!)

Thanks for good info, cogitator.
43 posted on 09/26/2006 11:41:43 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: cogitator
Please read the link that I provided.

I have read your link and have found it to be not substantively different from many others like it that I have previously read. The significant sentence from that article is contained within its first paragraph:

…the proportion of this warming that is due to human influence is still open to question.

All of the conclusions in the link you referenced (like every other similar article) are based upon a mathematical model. Anybody who is reasonably facile with mathematics can tell you that a model is only useful in its predictive power if it can be retroactively applied to past conditions and produce “predictions” that, in fact, “mirror” the observations of that past time frame.

The chief problem with the predictive power of the model you referenced (and all others) central to the claim of so-called global warming is that there is no way to get a valid “prediction” of past events. As climate change, based upon inferences from the geological record, is a phenomenon that transpires over hundreds, if not thousands, of years, the very first problem concerning model predictions is that there are no accurate, comprehensive records of all of the climatic conditions for that length of time. It is only possible to infer gross changes from indirect evidence such as ice core drillings, etc. There are no records of solar activity or volcanic activity, etc.

We do not even have comprehensively accurate records of solar variations, one of the primary contributors to climate, more than half a century old. For that matter, we do not have any statistically valid, data observation compilations of the amount and compositions of gases put into the earth’s atmosphere by volcanic activity, let alone the total amount of such activity, more than a century ago. We do know from very limited observations that a single volcano can potentially “belch” more greenhouse gases and other, erstwhile, pollutant gases into the atmosphere in a single eruption than any possible industrial contribution. We also know that there at dozens of volcanoes erupting in various degrees at various locations all over the earth at any one moment. Unless, and until, a mathematical model can accurately account for such natural contributions to the atmosphere, it is worthless. Of course, those contributions have to comprehensively, accurately and precisely measured first, something that is still not being done.

We have no data on the so-called, “ozone hole” over Antarctica prior to the satellite age nor do we have unquestioned explanations as to that phenomenon’s recently observed variations, let alone its driving mechanism. Consequently, there are no accurate input data for a comprehensive climate model that goes far enough back to be useful in an accurate model.

There is a second problem with the global warming theory based upon models. There, similar to solar activity, volcanic activity, ozone hole variation, etc., is no detailed, accurate record of conditions of any climatological conditions that came about as a result of any “model input data” changes. (Accurate weather recordings only extend less than a century and a half into the past).

(metaphor alert for the next paragraph!!!)

Even disregarding all the above problems with so-called, global warming models, there is, yet, one that is “the elephant in the living room.” Simple statistical analysis of the variations that are postulated to have occurred in the past based upon observations of ice core drillings and ocean core samples, etc., reveal that the currently observed changes are not outside the expected range of natural variation. Therefore, those “learned” individuals who “run around with their hair on fire” screaming about global warming, haven’t a non-controversial “leg to stand on.”
44 posted on 09/26/2006 12:10:13 PM PDT by Lucky Dog
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To: cogitator
"This evidence implies that we are getting close to dangerous levels of human-made pollution," said Hansen.

This evidence indicates somebody's got an agenda.

45 posted on 09/26/2006 12:27:36 PM PDT by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: Tokra

The trend is currently +0.2 C per decade: 2.0 C in 100 years.


46 posted on 09/26/2006 1:12:33 PM PDT by cogitator
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To: DBrow
The initial slope of the last interglacial is smoother than the initial slope of the current one. The two previous ones were similar in initial slope but did not seem to last as long as the last one. Three interglacials ago has the same spikes on the rising slope as this one did.

The previous interglacials could be more described "up-up-up-peak-down-flat-down-down" into the next glacial period. The current interglacial would be described "up-up-up-bounce(Younger Dryas)-flat" and flat is where we are now. The flat section is considerably longer than for the previous interglacials.

I admit that I don't know exactly how the end of a glacial period and the beginning of an interglacial period is defined (except for the Holocene). I don't think that end of the glacial period is defined as the point when global temeperatures start to increase; it's probably defined by the recession of the continental ice sheets.

Thanks for good info, cogitator.

Glad it was informative.

47 posted on 09/26/2006 1:17:57 PM PDT by cogitator
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To: Parley Baer
They've only recently begun farming in a few bits of Greenland, which they couldn't do right after WWII. Which means we've finally gotten back to where we were during the Medieval Warm Period.

All we have to do to cool things off is what they did back then to start the Little Ice Age - ban SUV's and limit industrial hydrocarbons. :-))

48 posted on 09/26/2006 1:24:19 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: cogitator

"The temperature of the global water column (from 0-3,000 meters) has been measured at numerous points around the world. A compilation of this data (by Levitus) indicated a clear warming of the water column, with most of the warming at the surface and just a little penetrating to depth, as would be expected. Heat from volcanic sources is negligible as a contribution to warming or the water vapor "budget"."

"measured at numerous points around the world".

From what I have seen the data is too anecdotal and not consistently systematic, nor systematically collected at a sufficient number of locations and depths on a onsistent and ongoing basis for a long enough period of time.

"Heat from volcanic sources is negligible as a contribution to warming or the water vapor 'budget'"

No reliable studies have ever (1)identified all the under-the-ocean heat sources from tectonic and volcanic activity or (2)systematically measured their heat output, making your statement, and statemenst like it, a guess, because the data to make that statement is nothing other than data no one has, and thus it is dismissed as "negligible", where the failure to acknowledge the lack of relevant data on this issue is what is negligent.


49 posted on 09/26/2006 1:28:40 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: Lucky Dog
You evince a lot of ideas. It's not useful to argue with your ideas -- it would take too much time. Rather, I'll show where you are grossly wrong, and maybe this will convince you to reexamine your other ideas and perhaps improve your understanding.

Anybody who is reasonably facile with mathematics can tell you that a model is only useful in its predictive power if it can be retroactively applied to past conditions and produce “predictions” that, in fact, “mirror” the observations of that past time frame.

Such as like this:

http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/450.htm#fig127

Caption: Global mean surface temperature anomalies relative to the 1880 to 1920 mean from the instrumental record compared with ensembles of four simulations with a coupled ocean-atmosphere climate model (from Stott et al., 2000b; Tett et al., 2000) forced (a) with solar and volcanic forcing only, (b) with anthropogenic forcing including well mixed greenhouse gases, changes in stratospheric and tropospheric ozone and the direct and indirect effects of sulphate aerosols, and (c) with all forcings, both natural and anthropogenic. The thick line shows the instrumental data while the thin lines show the individual model simulations in the ensemble of four members. Note that the data are annual mean values. The model data are only sampled at the locations where there are observations. The changes in sulphate aerosol are calculated interactively, and changes in tropospheric ozone were calculated offline using a chemical transport model. Changes in cloud brightness (the first indirect effect of sulphate aerosols) were calculated by an offline simulation (Jones et al., 1999) and included in the model. The changes in stratospheric ozone were based on observations. The volcanic forcing was based on the data of Sato et al. (1993) and the solar forcing on Lean et al. (1995), updated to 1997. The net anthropogenic forcing at 1990 was 1.0 Wm-2 including a net cooling of 1.0 Wm-2 due to sulphate aerosols. The net natural forcing for 1990 relative to 1860 was 0.5 Wm-2 , and for 1992 was a net cooling of 2.0 Wm-2 due to Mt. Pinatubo. Other models forced with anthropogenic forcing give similar results to those shown in b (see Chapter 8, Section 8.6.1, Figure 8.15; Hasselmann et al., 1995; Mitchell et al., 1995b; Haywood et al., 1997; Boer et al., 2000a; Knutson et al., 2000).

For that matter, we do not have any statistically valid, data observation compilations of the amount and compositions of gases put into the earth’s atmosphere by volcanic activity, let alone the total amount of such activity, more than a century ago. We do know from very limited observations that a single volcano can potentially “belch” more greenhouse gases and other, erstwhile, pollutant gases into the atmosphere in a single eruption than any possible industrial contribution.

Totally wrong. While volcanoes are a significant contributor of SO2 (particularly big eruptions), SO2 is not a greenhouse gas and actually would cause a cooling effect. Volcanoes are not a signficant source of CO2 or any other greenhouse gas compared to current anthropogenic production.

Gases: Man versus the Volcanoes

Volcanic Gases and their Effects

We have no data on the so-called, “ozone hole” over Antarctica prior to the satellite age nor do we have unquestioned explanations as to that phenomenon’s recently observed variations, let alone its driving mechanism.

Incorrect again. The ozone hole was discovered by ground-based measurements of ozone (Dobson unit decline) made by the British Antarctic Survey; in fact, when the ozone monitoring sensors on satellites first detected the hole, it was thought that the measurements were erroneous and the ground-based measurements had to be consulted to confirm what the satellites were observing.

Ozone Hole

The Antarctic Ozone Hole

Simple statistical analysis of the variations that are postulated to have occurred in the past based upon observations of ice core drillings and ocean core samples, etc., reveal that the currently observed changes are not outside the expected range of natural variation.

That's a specious ["have a false look of truth or genuiness"] argument. Even if the observed changes are not out of the full range of natural variation, their relevant aspect is the climate context in which the observed changes are occurring. If natural causes cannot be identified for the observed changes, then at least part of what is happening is not natural variation. Therefore, it is relevant to try to determine if the non-natural causes have the potential to push the climate system beyond the range of natural variation -- and this indeed is the concern of the climate science community.

50 posted on 09/26/2006 1:37:37 PM PDT by cogitator
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