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To: Steel Wolf
Fanaticism is the foundation of the suicide attack, but it's not triggered without a sense of territorial threat. The 9/11 pilots are the only real exception to the rule, and even they would tell you that they were responding to world-conqueraing American cultural aggression and all that crap. In the vast majority of cases, it needs to be a clear, concrete territorial issue, not an abstract one.

That is only true in the sense that we are in Dar-al-Harb. To the radical Muslim, we are all living in lands yet-to-be conquered. Not a single American could set foot in the Middle East ever again, and the terrorists would still strike us. The reason is that they are commanded to convert all of the world into Dar-al-Islam. Your mistake is in assuming the territory that the Muslims feel threatened in is in the Middle East. The territory that they feel threatened in is ours. Even were the Middle East to be totally converted to Taliban-type rule, relieving the "threat" to Islam there, the moment Islam stops spreading into our lands, they would feel threatened.

Japan's conversion to suicide attacks started when the circumstances changed to the point where they though they were losing the war. That was only partially (a very small part) about the land they occupied. It was far more about their feeling of helplessness as the resources they felt they needed to win (men, materiel, supplies) were being depleted. Likewise, even were we not in Iraq at all, the moment that Islam stopped expanding (as it is commanded to do), the attacks would increase. Iraq simply reveses the religious expansion, not the territorial one. American is not annexing Iraq; we are making sure that Islamic fundamentalism cannot take hold there. And it is the defeat of the ideology, not the loss or capture of land, that has them suicide bombing us...

115 posted on 09/28/2006 1:18:53 PM PDT by Charles H. (The_r0nin) (Hwæt! Lãr biþ mæst hord, soþlïce!)
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To: Charles H. (The_r0nin)
That is only true in the sense that we are in Dar-al-Harb. To the radical Muslim, we are all living in lands yet-to-be conquered. Not a single American could set foot in the Middle East ever again, and the terrorists would still strike us.

Sure, but at a far smaller rate of incidence. Al-Qa'ida is a movement with a very, very low level of appeal. The only reason it's able to achieve what it does is by latching on to concerns within the moderate Arab community, and exploiting them.

Without legitimate gripes to hide behind, the militant philosophy of al-Qa'ida would return to being a fringe problem. Certainly, still a threat, but nothing like what it is now.

Your mistake is in assuming the territory that the Muslims feel threatened in is in the Middle East. The territory that they feel threatened in is ours. Even were the Middle East to be totally converted to Taliban-type rule, relieving the "threat" to Islam there, the moment Islam stops spreading into our lands, they would feel threatened.

From a theological view, yes, you're right. But few Muslims really are on that wavelenght. They're on board with al-Qa'ida's only because AQ is the only game in town as far as real resistance to the global cultural threat the West radiates. Their literal and extremist interpretation of the Qu'ran are not popular with most Muslims, and they side with a group that espouses them it only because nothing else is stopping us.

The fact of the matter is, traditional Islamic culture is dying. They know that it is in mortal peril from the West. That's why a rabid, militant Islamic belief arose as the defender of Islam. Normal Muslims are being led away from the old ways by Western ideas, media, philosophies, forms of government, and beliefs. It's common knowledge that Muslim nations are not competitive with the West, economically, militarily, or politically. Collectively, they are helpless against us, and they know it.

The Wahabbi phenomenon is a panicked response from a culture that is being disintegrated. It's true that Islam has some inherent advantages over the West, and in the short term, so long as we allow them to continue, they will enjoy some parity with us. But they realize that in the long run, they're hopelessly outclassed. This push for confrontation is a desperate defensive reaction. It will have offensive characteristics, like a kamikaze, but it is in effect nothing more than a culture desperately lashing out.

Al-Qa'ida is in effect making itself the organizational equivalent of a suicide bomber, hoping to scare the West when all other forms of deterrence have failed.

Japan's conversion to suicide attacks started when the circumstances changed to the point where they though they were losing the war. That was only partially (a very small part) about the land they occupied.

It was a direct response to the threat of invasion our fleets posed to the home islands. The homes and families of the Japanese were in imminent danger of being conquered.

It was far more about their feeling of helplessness as the resources they felt they needed to win (men, materiel, supplies) were being depleted.

The military of the Arab people is in an even worse state than the Imperial Japanese were. What other options do they have that are militarily effective against our high tech juggernaut? How helpless do the Arabs feel, when their mightiest armies are swept aside in a matter of weeks, and are utterly unable to resist our will?

Likewise, even were we not in Iraq at all, the moment that Islam stopped expanding (as it is commanded to do), the attacks would increase.

Again, true in a theological sense, but not in a military one. The people who are swelling to join AQs ranks, or support them passively, are allies of convenience against percieved or real threats to the Arab Islamic way of life. In each brush we've had with militant Islam over the last 50 years, it's been a reaction to Western hands in the Middle East.

Iraq simply reveses the religious expansion, not the territorial one. American is not annexing Iraq; we are making sure that Islamic fundamentalism cannot take hold there.

Iraq doesn't reverse any religious expansion whatsoever. That situation was stable, and if anything, our invasion took the lid off of the extremists. Saddam had already ensured that Islamic fundamentalism didn't take hold there, so that wasn't an issue.

You claim that America is not annexing Iraq, but good luck finding a Middle Easterner that believes that. They think we're there for the long haul, to keep an eye on the oil, and to keep an eye on the government that arises from it. We can sit back and say, "Well, it's for their own good", but you have no concept of how humiliating that would be. If it happened to us, there would be militias and resistance movements coming out of the woodwork.

And it is the defeat of the ideology, not the loss or capture of land, that has them suicide bombing us...

No ideology has been defeated in Iraq. None. Not democracy, Ba'athism, or Islamism. The only tangible change in Iraq, that any Iraqi can see, is that their country is occupied by foreign troops who don't appear to be going anywhere anytime soon.

126 posted on 09/28/2006 7:07:55 PM PDT by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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