Why quote a Byzantine emperor?

Herald Tribune ^ | 9/24/2006 | Erwan Lagadec

[a_Turk]

Throughout the tumult over Pope Benedict XVI's recent speech, he and Vatican spokesmen have beseeched journalists, critics and the public not to take the contentious passage "out of context." Let us try, then, to elucidate this context.

Not, however, the purely textual context of the now infamous "Paleologus quote," but the real context - the historical and intellectual backdrop that helps explain why the pope (whether or not he agrees with it) turned to this passage to introduce the main argument of his speech.

It is at best ironic, and at worst disturbing, that a Roman pope should have quoted a Greek Orthodox emperor from around 1400 with respect to Muslim violence. (snip!)

[a_Turk]

Erwan Lagadec is currently a visiting fellow at the Center for Trans-Atlantic Relations of Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies. His doctoral dissertation at Oxford focused on 13th and 14th century philosophy and theology.

[cripplecreek]

Well the speech was about the evolution of religion.

[a_Turk]

And it turned out to be deserving of a Darwin award.

[Constantine XIII]

What?

[Jeff Head]

Why quote a Byzantine emperor?

...because in this sense he was spot on.

[cripplecreek]

The Islamderthals have proven it true both when originally spoken and again when quoted by the Pope as well as uncounted other occasions.

[MarMema]

It is at best ironic, and at worst disturbing, that a Roman pope should have quoted a Greek Orthodox emperor from around 1400 with respect to Muslim violence. Emperor Manuel II Paleologus was forced by Ottoman strategic pressure to seek a humiliating rapprochement with Rome; yet Rome, to most contemporary Byzantines, was still profoundly alien, and ultimately hostile. Barely 150 years after the end of the violent occupation of Constantinople by Latin Crusaders, there is no doubt that Manuel would have been tempted to indict Roman Christianity's inherent violence in terms very similar to the remarks he made about Islam.

Good one. Thanks for posting.

WAH!! Everyone was creaming us in those days.

[mhx]

Why are we still talking about this?

[Tench_Coxe]

"It is to be hoped that the West, in its dialogue with the Muslim world, does not share Manuel Paleologus's bleak outlook, or the conviction that his and our historical circumstances are in any way comparable. Giving credence to such notions would doom us to turn the "clash of civilizations" into a self- fulfilling prophecy."

I don't think Benedict XVI was making a direct comparison. He was, IMHO, attempting to use the perspective of a beseiged Constantinople to illustrate that little has changed from the Muslim perspective. I also think Benedict was speaking to the Muslims to encourage introspection--the Christian West, after years of fighting amongst themselves, finally began to look at the roots of their fighting. Islam has not, with the exception of a few brave voices who have to go into hiding, threatened with death.

[a_Turk]

It's a good article, worth posting. Not everything is an argument.

[Cold Heat]

Why are we still talking about this?

Why not?

I don't think the Pope is finished talking. I expect more.

He started with the beginning and will likely expand the topic as he goes.

[george76]

The Battle Of Lepanto



The "Holy League" turned the Ottoman Turks back on October 7, 1571 at Lepano and prevented the Mediterranean from becoming a Muslim lake.

[mrsmith]

This is exactly the kind of discussion and communication between the faiths that the Pope wanted to start...


Pretty smart fella, that Pope.

[a_Turk]

Yeah. So? Are you one of those new talking history books or something?

[a_Turk]

There's a large statue of the previous Pope Benedict that sits in Istanbul, erected some decades ago.

[ArrogantBustard]

And it turned out to be deserving of a Darwin award.

Dude, that comes across looking an awful lot like a threat. Mehemet Ali Acga is a Turk.

[sageb1]

"In this intellectual joust, Christian authors never put into question the Muslims' capacity to combine reason and faith. They merely claimed that their own arguments were the more cogent."

They (Christian authors) were simply late to the party. Most Americans, as well as many around the world, assumed that Muslims did have that capacity. 9/11 changed all that. Not because reasonable people were looking to hate Muslims, but because we took them up on the then forthcoming invitation to read the Qur'an, to learn about Islam. We read. We studied. We learned.

Darwin award? I think not. Already, the Pope's speech is having an effect on the reformists within Islam. That is a good thing. Islam is not compatible with freedom or democracy.

[a_Turk]

Paid via the Bulgarians by the USSR to keep a Polish Pope from inspiring the Poles, Agca was originally a far right terrorist and wanted for murder in Turkey at the time. Tody, after decades in prison in Italy, Agca maintains that he is Jesus :))

[a_Turk]

Well, let's hope that you are right. If you're wrong though, let's hope that nothing happens to him while on visit to Turkey.

[ArrogantBustard]

Darwin award is "given" to someone killed as a result of his own stupidity. Please clarify your meaning in #3.