Soldiers salute General's comments on web forum [British deserting Iraq.]

Times Online ^ | 13OCT06 | Devika Bhat

[familyop]

The call from General Sir Richard Dannatt that British forces should leave Iraq "sometime soon" has met with overwhelming support on the unofficial Army Rumour Service website, which includes forums where officers can air their views anonymously.

Many express shock about the frankness of his words and there are several references to Sir Richard’s "moral" courage in speaking his mind, as well as calls for the Prime Minister to take heed of his remarks.

"...I am thoroughly heartened by this and have the beginings [sic] of a thaw in the cynicism which has dogged my service thinking since 2003," admits Jim_P_Pulfrew.

"I hope Blair is listening," says user Nigegilb. "Sir Richard has made the call and said it how it is. Good on him. Stand by for incoming. Getting out of Iraq is essential if [Afghanistan] is going to work in the long run. God knows what will happen to Iraq, not sure it will be any worse though. He made the point that we were never invited in we kicked the door in.

Nigegilb asks: "Can someone close to Sir Richard tell him that if he gets sacked he should run for office against whoever is the PM at the time. He will win by a landslide."

"Sir Richard, I'm saluting you right now!," says Purple_Flash. "It's about time someone of your standing actually lived up the Values & Standards that we so often pay lip service to. They are what should make us a breed apart; thank you for walking the walk rather than talking the talk."

Some are less diplomatic in their praise for Sir Richard and criticism of the Government. "He's [Sir Richard] got a hell of a pair of moral b***s on him, I'll give him that! I imagine B'liar is in a bit of a cold sweat/hot rage now," says 303SMLE.

"Politicians can't grasp the idea of someone telling the truth, they'll all just assume he is chasing some kind of agenda. (Arguably, pursuing the truth and bringing the boys home is his agenda!) This might turn out to be one of those moments when the world turns and Governments fall; I certainly hope so!"

Brewmeister adds: "I think even Teflon Tony is going to find it difficult to weasel his way out of this. If Sir Richard goes it's time for a coup."

Stooge notes: "I don't think his comments will 'fall on deaf ears'. I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of people in Whitehall who have by now heard about his comments and panicing [sic]. At the very least some of them will have a sleepless night trying to make this seem less ‘bad’.

"Also, this isn't someone with a political agenda. He's looking out for his own men. Even the public will see that."

It is not just the Government which comes under criticism over Iraq. Hereward says: "A real leader of men has spoken for once. Forget the feeble Mr Cameron and the non-existent Mr Campbell, the general is indeed the true moral voice of opposition in this country."

Many say the comments were long overdue and call for the Army to gather in support of Sir Richard should his position come under threat. "After years and years, AT LAST someone at the top, who makes the headline on the news, has had the b***s to stand up and be counted," says Brandt. "If he gets the sack, watch out for fireworks- If he has had the balls to stand up for us, we should do the same."

DigitalGeek adds: "The General has laid down the gauntlet to the Government. It is now time that we stood behind him." Drop_Short adds: "It is about time that our senior generalship actually stopped being part of the government and stood up for what is in the best interests of the Service. Bring on the revolution"

Even the few users critical of Sir Richard are keen to acknowledge that they agree with his apparent stance on Iraq. PassingBells writes: "Accurate and welcome though these comments are, they are not the sort of remarks that should be made publically [sic]. They are exactly what the CGS [Chief of the General Staff] should be saying privately…I fear that this smacks of naivity [sic] of his behalf and a serious lapse on behalf of his minder(s)."

Most users though, are wholly supportive of the General’s comments. At the time of writing, an ongoing poll on the site claimed that of 126 users, 78 per cent think he is "absolutely right", while only three per cent voted "he had to resign first before making such a statement".

[Jack2006]

It should be easy to prove then?

[familyop]

I agree that we should be looking for solutions instead of cliches, condescensions or name calling. An author with a US philanthropic organization recently addressed British perceptions of the USA. Hopefully, constructive action will start with that. How can we improve quality (honesty) of information for a population?

British Conservatives Must Defend the U.S.–U.K. Special Relationship"
The Heritage Foundation ^ | 28AUG06 | Nile Gardiner, Ph.D.

Excerpted footnotes:


[1] YouGov/Spectator Survey, August 14-15, 2006, at
http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/SpectatorPollResults.pdf.


[2] ICM/Guardian Poll, July 21-23, 2006, at
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2006/Guardian%20-%20July/guardian
-july-2006.asp.


[3] YouGov/Daily Telegraph Survey, June 26-28, 2006, at

http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/TEL060101010_3.pdf#search=%22
you%20gov%20daily%20telegraph%2026th-28th%20june%202006%22;
Anthony King, “Britain Falls Out of Love with America,” The Daily Telegraph, July 3, 2006, at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/03
/nyank103.xml.


[4] Financial Times/Harris Poll of Adults in Five European Countries, August 21, 2006, at http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=1081.


[5] Liam Fox MP, “Security and Defense: Making Sense of the Special Relationship,” Heritage Lecture No. 939, April 27, 2006, at http://www.heritage.org/Research/Europe/hl939.cfm.


[6] Julian Glover, “Tories Open Nine-Point Lead as Labour Drops to 19-Year Low,” The Guardian, August 22, 2006, at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,
1855567,00.html.


[7] “Built to Last: The Aims and Values of the Conservative Party,” Conservative Party, August 2006, at http://www.conservatives.com/pdf/BuiltToLast-AimsandValues.pdf.

[LibWhacker]

Indeed.

[Jack2006]

America didn't pre-exist before the British people. It is great because it took the best of Britain and started afresh, without any baggage.

Why do you think you speak English and that you hear of Italian-Americans, African-Americans ad infinitum but no British-Americans?

America was not conquered - it was created by and for Britain, until those British people decided, quite rightly, to throw off the old cr@p. It was the British who beat the British. The settlers didn't come from mars.

That is why, to many American's surprise, American Independence is seen as a great part of British history and why after 9/11 it was possible for Buckingham Palace to play the star spangled banner. No other country would have that right, except maybe Canada, Australia or New Zealand. See the link?

[CWOJackson]

"America didn't pre-exist before the British people."

You seem to be forgetting the French and Dutch...and by extension the Spanish. I guess you're not aware that while the first English settlers in the America's were struggling to make it through their first winter, a feat many of them did not master, there was already a well established community in St. Augustine (Florida) that featured roads and schools. But in the so-called original colonies, the English only made up a portion of the colonists.

"It is great because it took the best of Britain and started afresh, without any baggage."

LOL! Yes, we did start afresh by declaring ourselves free of the oppressive British government and monarchy and forming our own nation built on our ideals.

[Mr Rogers]

Agreed. There are few folks I'd rather have nearby in a fight than the British Army.

[Jack2006]

LOL! Yes, we did start afresh by declaring ourselves free of the oppressive British government and monarchy and forming our own nation built on our ideals.

And who were those people of the thirteen colonies if not predominantly British people?

I think many Americans today think Britain conquered America and don't realise that those saw themselves as British-Americans or the British of America

Here is the flag George Washington flew in 1776. Here is how he saw himself and his people best represented.

(At the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776, this was the most commonly flown flag, and was present at the naming of the country, "the United States of America," on September 9, 1776. The flag was the official flag for the beginning of the American Revolution.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Union_Flag

[CWOJackson]

"And who were those people of the thirteen colonies if not predominantly British people?"

French, Dutch and English in what is commonly referred to as the colonies, but also Spanish in what would become Amercia...England was only one element in the early days.

"I think many Americans today think Britain conquered America and don't realise that those saw themselves as British-Americans or the British of America."

Hardly. Many American's know that the English were one of four major nationalities that first came to these shores, but it was the united movement to throw off British tyranny in it's colonies that established what would later become these United States.

We liberated ourselves from England, totally. That is why America evolved into the nation it is rather then becoming a nation such as Canada or Australia...we are our own nation.

Nothing demonstrates that better then visiting a Provincial Capital in Canada and a State Capital in the U.S. The State Capital has a grand front entrance, through which all may enter. The Provincial Capital has a grand entrance...reserved for the "Royal Family"...it's own citizens must use a lesser entrance.

That is what made America great.

[Jack2006]

So George Washington and those at the birth of the USA put the British flag happily as part of their own and you can't see that significance?

But to be honest, If you personally can't even get the difference between England and Britain right, then what hope the rest of your personal pop history?

[CWOJackson]

"So George Washington and those at the birth of the USA put the British flag happily as part of their own and you can't see that significance?"

There were many individual flags in use initially, but by the time we took the Union Jack at Yorktown our armies marched under the Stars and Stripes...and I do see the significance in that.

"But to be honest, If you personally can't even get the difference between England and Britain right, then what hope the rest of your personal pop history?"

LOL! I'm sure your grasp of pop history is far superior to the grasp your nation retains over all it's many colonies.

[LibWhacker]

So George Washington and those at the birth of the USA put the British flag happily as part of their own and you can't see that significance? Not happily, give me a break. They removed it. Can you not see the significance of that?

[CWOJackson]

Better yet...they removed the Union Jack from the nation.

[Jack2006]

You seem to enjoy denying your own history. The flag above was the flag of the revolution. To deny that is to deny yourself.

I feel embarrassed that you would deny your own history to score points on a website.

[CWOJackson]

I can understand your desire to attempt to take some credit for the success of this nation, however, that success was only from throwing you out. You know, much like most of the rest of your colonies did as well...until now your British Empire consists of a few rocky places of no importance.

[Jack2006]

Not happily, give me a break.

The flag was freely chosen after independence. If you want to deny the first Americans freely chose that then you deny the truth. I bet some of you didn't even know all this! As for it changing - well all flags change. The British flag has changed since 1776 too.

"The Grand Union 1775: Also known as the Continental flag, it is the first true U.S. Flag. It combined the British King's Colours and the thirteen stripes signifying Colonial unity. George Washington liked this design so well that he chose it to be flown to celebrate the formation of the Continental Army on New Years Day, 1776. On that day the Grand Union Flag was proudly raised on Prospect Hill in Somerville, near his headquarters at Cambridge, Massachusetts. "

http://www.usflag.org/history/grandunion1775.html

[Jack2006]

Your attempt to childishly and bizarrely insult Britain only serves to show your personal ignorance of your own nation's history.

I bet you knew nothing of this? LOL

[CWOJackson]

You know Sparky, to borrow an English phrase, you sure are a bore. Do you think that's why we threw you out twice...and both times under the Stars and Stripes.

[LibWhacker]

"The British flag has changed since 1776 too."

Out of revulsion for what was on it?

Look, all that is ancient history and we're friends now -- or were, when you needed us. But friends do not abandon friends.

Something like 75% of all Brits despise George Bush and America. What are we to think of that?

[Jack2006]

I am not English so insult the English if you choose.

As for throwing Britain out under the stars and stripes. How can you deny your own history? You fought under the Grand Union Flag. It must be embarrassing for a Briton to teach you your own history eh? LOL

"The first flag of the colonists to have any resemblance to the present Stars and Stripes was the Grand Union Flag, sometimes referred to as the Congress Colors, the First Navy Ensign, and the Cambridge Flag. Its design consisted of 13 stripes, alternately red and white, representing the Thirteen Colonies, with a blue field in the upper left-hand corner bearing the red cross of St. George of England with the white cross of St. Andrew of Scotland.

As the flag of the Revolution it was used on many occasions. It was first flown by the ships of the Colonial Fleet on the Delaware River. On December 3, 1775, it was raised aboard Captain Esek Hopkin's flagship Alfred by John Paul Jones, then a Navy lieutenant. Later the flag was raised on the liberty pole at Prospect Hill, which was near George Washington's headquarters in Cambridge, Massachusetts. "

http://www.foundingfathers.info/American-flag/Grand-Union.html

[Jack2006]

50% of Americans vote against George Bush. Are they ant-American Americans then? LOL