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Keep Darwin's 'lies' out of Polish schools: education official
AFP via Yahoo! News ^ | October 14, 2006

Posted on 10/14/2006 11:16:50 AM PDT by lizol

Keep Darwin's 'lies' out of Polish schools: education official 2 hours.

WARSAW (AFP) - Poland's deputy education minister called for the influential evolutionary theories of Charles Darwin not to be taught in the country's schools, branding them "lies."

"The theory of evolution is a lie, an error that we have legalised as a common truth," Miroslaw Orzechowski, the deputy minister in the country's right-wing coalition government, was quoted as saying by the Gazeta Wyborcza daily Saturday.

Orzechowski said the theory was "a feeble idea of an aged non-believer," who had come up with it "perhaps because he was a vegetarian and lacked fire inside him."

The evolution theory of the 19th-century British naturalist holds that existing animals and plants are the result of natural selection which eliminated inferior species gradually over time. This conflicts with the "creationist" theory that God created all life on the planet in a finite number.

Orzechowski called for a debate on whether Darwin's theory should be taught in schools.

"We should not teach lies, just as we should not teach bad instead of good, or ugliness instead of beauty," he said. "We are not going to withdraw (Darwin's theory) from the school books, but we should start to discuss it."

The deputy minister is a member of a Catholic far-right political group, the League of Polish Families. The league's head, Roman Giertych, is education minister in the conservative coalition government of Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski.

Giertych's father Maciej, who represents the league in the European Parliament, organised a discussion there last week on Darwinism. He described the theory as "not supported by proof" and called for it be removed from school books.

The far-right joined the government in May when Kaczynski's ruling conservative Law and Justice (PiS) party, after months of ineffective minority government, formed a coalition including LPR and the populist Sambroon party.

Roman Giertych has not spoken out on Darwinism, but the far-right politician's stance on other issues has stirred protest in Poland since he joined the government.

A school pupils' association was expected to demonstrate in front of the education ministry on Saturday to call for his resignation.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: creationism; crevolist; darwin; education; enoughalready; evolution; faith; keywordwars; moralabsolutes; poland; preacher; religion; seethingnaturalists; skullporn
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1 posted on 10/14/2006 11:16:51 AM PDT by lizol
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To: Little Bill; floridavoter2; PoParma; goarmy; G8 Diplomat; mick; PaulJ; steve54; Mike Fieschko; ...
Eastern European ping list


FRmail me to be added or removed from this Eastern European ping list

2 posted on 10/14/2006 11:17:30 AM PDT by lizol (Liberal - a man with his mind open ... at both ends)
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To: lizol

They will go far, these Poles.


3 posted on 10/14/2006 11:18:20 AM PDT by HitmanLV ("If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking until you do succeed." - Jerry 'Curly' Howard)
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To: lizol

Sad, Poland historically had some of the best science education in Europe.


4 posted on 10/14/2006 11:26:13 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: lizol
"The theory of evolution is a lie,

No it isn't, it's an overwhelmingly validated scientific theory.

Orzechowski said the theory was "a feeble idea of an aged non-believer," who had come up with it "perhaps because he was a vegetarian and lacked fire inside him."

Uh huh... Yup, that's about as "good" as these kinds of idiotic attacks on science get. He hasn't a clue as to what the actual evidence is, and has no ability to describe what exactly is allegedly wrong with the science and why, so he goes off on rants about how it was originated by a vegetarian who "lacked fire inside him", blah blah blah.

Meanwhile, thousands of research papers further validating evolutionary biology are published every year.

Wake me when the kooks find something else to get wild-eyed about.

5 posted on 10/14/2006 11:37:06 AM PDT by Ichneumon (Ignorance is curable, but the afflicted has to want to be cured.)
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To: lizol
Yeah, I want every other Creation theory taught too!



6 posted on 10/14/2006 11:38:55 AM PDT by balrog666 (Ignorance is never better than knowledge. - Enrico Fermi)
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To: Ichneumon

Better to label it scientific theory and leave in the schools.


7 posted on 10/14/2006 11:40:26 AM PDT by cripplecreek (If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?)
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To: lizol
Poland's deputy education minister called for the influential evolutionary theories of Charles Darwin not to be taught in the country's schools, branding them "lies."

Finally, someone with some sense on the issue. Wonder if the U.S. will see someone like this step up to the plate. Naw, that is just a dream.

8 posted on 10/14/2006 11:40:55 AM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: Ichneumon

Oh come on, you could drive a truck through evolution's holes. They teach it like the gospel truth, rather than scientific theory. Thats my only objection.


9 posted on 10/14/2006 11:48:58 AM PDT by Crazieman (The Democratic Party: Culture of Treason)
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To: Ichneumon

Darwinism is in retreat. The secularists are running.


10 posted on 10/14/2006 11:49:29 AM PDT by Axlrose
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To: lizol
This is terrible.

Here I thought Poland was a model for how a culture can be traditional and religious and yet reject fundamentalism. I have been citing Poland as an example of how a country can be both religious in the traditioanl and yet fully modern in terms of science and technology

Now it seems Poland is slipping into fundamentalism and anti-scientific paranoia. Very, very sad. I hope this joker of an education minister's views aren't representative of the current government.

11 posted on 10/14/2006 11:54:06 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: Axlrose

"Darwinism is in retreat. The secularists are running.
"



Yah, sure, you betcha. If we keep pushing creationism in our schools here in the USA, we could be just like Poland.

Man...that's what I want. Sure.


12 posted on 10/14/2006 11:54:13 AM PDT by MineralMan (Non-evangelical Atheist)
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To: MineralMan

Now if only we can get rid of that ridiculous spherical earth lie and get started fantasy that removed the earth from the center of the universe. (sarc?)


13 posted on 10/14/2006 11:57:30 AM PDT by cripplecreek (If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?)
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To: curiosity; vox_PL
Vox, you're a very, very staunch supporter of the current government.

Any comment for Curiosity?
14 posted on 10/14/2006 11:58:36 AM PDT by lizol (Liberal - a man with his mind open ... at both ends)
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To: curiosity
"Now it seems Poland is slipping into fundamentalism and anti-scientific paranoia."

It isn't. These are just few idiots.
15 posted on 10/14/2006 12:01:05 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Grzegorz 246

Idiots indeed.

But really dangerous, as we can see.


16 posted on 10/14/2006 12:02:52 PM PDT by lizol (Liberal - a man with his mind open ... at both ends)
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To: antiRepublicrat
Sad, Poland historically had some of the best science education in Europe.

I had the same reaction as you at first. Then I read the whole article. The education minister is part of a fringe fundamentalist party, league of Polish families, whose primary following is in the poor, rural parts of Poland. They have only marginal representation in the Parliament. Unfortunately, head of the current governing coalition could not form a majority without bringing in these freaks. They had to give them some post in the government, and they probably thought education minister was the post wherein the freaks could do least harm.

Unfortunately, that turned out not the be the case.

I'm heartened by the demonstrations by students calling for the minister's resignation alluded to at the end of the article.

It looks likely that this whole thing will blow over without affecting Polish science education. At least that's what I hope.

17 posted on 10/14/2006 12:03:38 PM PDT by curiosity
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The circus is back in town *Placemarker*


18 posted on 10/14/2006 12:06:38 PM PDT by b_sharp (since evolution is not, generally speaking, a global optimiser, but a general satisficer -J. Wilkins)
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To: Grzegorz 246
Yes, when I read the whole article, I now see what's going on. This is just an outburst from one of Giertych's freaks. The Kaczynski brothers are now paying for bringing those idiots into the government. Hopefully they'll think twice before pulling such a stunt again.
19 posted on 10/14/2006 12:09:09 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: lizol
But really dangerous, as we can see.

How much damage do you think Orzechowski can do?

20 posted on 10/14/2006 12:10:38 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: curiosity

For example - more people may start thinking about my country in a way, that you expressed in your post.

And it may be difficult to explain, that we are not all idiots, just some of our officials are. :-)))


21 posted on 10/14/2006 12:28:45 PM PDT by lizol (Liberal - a man with his mind open ... at both ends)
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To: All

You shouldn't dispute evolution in this forum. I tried it a while back and was bombarded by the responses of true believers. Just go along with them, it's easier. Hail Darwin!


22 posted on 10/14/2006 12:37:26 PM PDT by KarinG1 (Opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not necessarily represent those of sane people.)
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To: antiRepublicrat
"Sad, Poland historically had some of the best science education in Europe."

You Serious? Anti... please, at least read a little about the other side of this issue.

God, or intelligent design, or something HAD a hand in our existence. Google the subject, read some, and then get back to this thread.

23 posted on 10/14/2006 12:45:26 PM PDT by Dacus943
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To: lizol
Seems like that damage could be easily contained with a statement from the lead party that Orzechowski's outburst represents his views only and not that of the governing coalition. Has anyone from PiS said anything yet?
24 posted on 10/14/2006 12:52:20 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: lizol

YES!!!


25 posted on 10/14/2006 1:16:06 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: LiteKeeper

No.


26 posted on 10/14/2006 1:20:19 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Ichneumon

Keep sticking your head in the sand...the days of Darwinism are numbered! Darwinism/Evolutionism are a philosophical system, not science.


27 posted on 10/14/2006 1:32:49 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Crazieman
Oh come on, you could drive a truck through evolution's holes.

Be my guest. Take your best shot. Your Nobel Prize awaits.

They teach it like the gospel truth, rather than scientific theory. Thats my only objection.

They teach the theory of evolution as, well, a theory. That's why its called the theory of evolution.

28 posted on 10/14/2006 1:53:03 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Crazieman
Oh come on, you could drive a truck through evolution's holes.

What holes? I can almost guarrantee you that any so-called holes you come up with will be nothing more than an indication of your lack of knowledge on the subject at hand and can quickly be shown to be non-existent.

So, my challenge to you: give this your best shot; you might actually learn some real science before this day is out.

29 posted on 10/14/2006 2:08:49 PM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: KarinG1; bornacatholic; ninenot; sittnick; Convert from ECUSA; Tax-chick
KarinG1: He was Darwin, their god, and they DEMAND that you not have the actual God before Darwin. Of course, when last polled, a substantial majority of FReepers voted for Creationism to be taught. Most Freepers are, after all, conservative.

OTOH, why the Darwin critters simultaneously claim to be conservative and favor tax-funded gummint skewels is beyond me.

They think they are nothing but trousered (or skirted) apes, that they are just smarter and more articulate beasts. Maybe they are and their arguments are proof that they are. I'm a human being, composed of body and soul. I bet you are too. Why would we want to debate self-described beasts??? Let them debate each other.

Look! Up in the tree! It's a baboon! It's a primal ape! It's Bonzo! No, no, it is a Darwin critter! He's the one with the banana in his left paw, gesticulating and screeching (and scratching?????) at 60 MPH with gusts up to 90.

30 posted on 10/14/2006 2:08:50 PM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Axlrose
Not visibly. The DI has lost every battle it's been in. They lost in the courts in Pennsylvania. They lost in elections in Kansas and Penna. They lost in Michigan and Ohio in the Board of Education.

After spending $16.5 million over the last 5 years, they have nothing to show for it.

31 posted on 10/14/2006 2:19:20 PM PDT by thomaswest (Just curious.)
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To: LiteKeeper
Keep sticking your head in the sand...the days of Darwinism are numbered! Darwinism/Evolutionism are a philosophical system, not science.

And 'Creationism' is a fact?

Sorry, but the Biblical 6-day creation story is simpky not supported by the evidence.

32 posted on 10/14/2006 2:20:00 PM PDT by Da_Shrimp
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To: Junior
What holes? I can almost guarrantee you that any so-called holes you come up with will be nothing more than an indication of your lack of knowledge on the subject at hand and can quickly be shown to be non-existent.

Can you show ONE OBSERVED instance of man evolving from another species?

I believe the fossil record alone is missing so much that at this point it's absolutely impossible for science to seriously make even the slight mention of Evo, however that doesn't stop the cult from making absurd assumptions.

33 posted on 10/14/2006 2:23:12 PM PDT by sirchtruth (No one has the RIGHT not to be offended...)
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To: LiteKeeper
Re 27: The demise of evolution has been predicted for 125 years, but instead it just keeps getting stronger and stronger with new and better evidence.

There is no doubt that more people believe in the scientific method and evolution today than at any time in the past.

34 posted on 10/14/2006 2:23:58 PM PDT by thomaswest (Just curious.)
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To: lizol
"The theory of evolution is a lie, an error that we have legalised as a common truth . . ."

Orzechowski words it a little too strongly. The theory of evolution is one philosophy of history among many, embraced in faith by people from all walks of life. It's the "useful idiot's" version of science, mistaking common form for common history.

Not that there is a lack of people willing to lie on behalf of their pet philosophy, let alone people who believe it is entitled to an exclusive hearing by law in public schools. I'd just rather think of evolution's believers as faithful followers of their own preconceived notions, as opposed to willful liars.

35 posted on 10/14/2006 2:24:43 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: BlackElk

Or possibly driving with a cell phone plugged into his ear.


36 posted on 10/14/2006 2:26:18 PM PDT by thomaswest (Thank god for evolution!)
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To: lizol
Orzechowski said the theory was "a feeble idea of an aged non-believer,"

Hmmm. I guess antievolutionists are uninformed everywhere. Darwin first developed his theory of evolution around 1838, at which time he was 29 years old. Although he would later become an agnostic, at that time he was still a Christian.

who had come up with it "perhaps because he was a vegetarian and lacked fire inside him."

Geez! Where is he coming up with this stuff? Darwin was never a vegetarian. Heck, during the Beagle voyage, while riding the pampas of Argentina with local gauchos, he ate little except meat for weeks at a time.

37 posted on 10/14/2006 2:26:45 PM PDT by Stultis
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To: sirchtruth

A post from the school of thought that says: There was a gap in the fossil record, and you have found an intermediate fossil. Now you have two gaps!


38 posted on 10/14/2006 2:29:28 PM PDT by thomaswest (Thank god for evolution!)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Not that there is a lack of people willing to lie on behalf of their pet philosophy,

The same could be said of Creationists. Liars for Jahweh!

39 posted on 10/14/2006 2:31:15 PM PDT by Da_Shrimp
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To: Fester Chugabrew

See my post at 31. The DI had its day in court, and the proponents of "intelligent design" were found to have lied under oath. And in their testimony, they made monkeys of themselves.


40 posted on 10/14/2006 2:32:43 PM PDT by thomaswest (Thank god for evolution!)
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To: Da_Shrimp

Without question, we're all fully capable of lying. Calling the theory of evolution a "science" - calling something a thing which it is not - what do we call that? I'll be charitable and call it a "misnomer."


41 posted on 10/14/2006 2:34:19 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: sirchtruth
Can you show ONE OBSERVED instance of man evolving from another species?

Sure, but you said you wouldn't accept the fossil record. Of course, there is also the DNA evidence, but you probably won't accept that either. Besides, man has already evolved from an earlier species; such an event will never happen again according to the ToE.

BTW, evolution deals with ALL organisms, not just people.

42 posted on 10/14/2006 2:36:07 PM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: BlackElk

Good to hear someone who agrees with me. After the last time I disputed evolution here I got a little keyboard shy about it. Apparently the Darwin crowd feels that if you disagree with them it is because you aren't nearly as smart as they are and just don't understand. They ganged up on me. I thought it best to leave it alone, but I don't buy into evolutionary theory.


43 posted on 10/14/2006 2:36:52 PM PDT by KarinG1 (Opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not necessarily represent those of sane people.)
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To: Stultis

I await the post that asserts Charles Darwin was the originator of Stalinism, the Holocaust, advisor to Pol Pot, and single-handedly conspired to fluoridate the water supply.


44 posted on 10/14/2006 2:38:19 PM PDT by thomaswest (Thank god for evolution! Without it, we wouldn't be here.)
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To: thomaswest
The DI had its day in court . . .

So it's the courts that establish what is and is not science? Who'd a thunk? I do not trust Judge Jones's opinions, no matter how popular he may be with evolution's faithful. I also do not trust people who cannot speak tentatively when they are dealing with tentative ideas. It kind of makes them look like, well, "useful idiots."

45 posted on 10/14/2006 2:39:34 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: KarinG1
OK, but remember the famous quote from one of the ID proponents at the Dover, PA trial.

"We are being attacked by the educated, intelligent part of society."

46 posted on 10/14/2006 2:40:31 PM PDT by thomaswest (Thank god for evolution! Without it, we wouldn't be here.)
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To: lizol

"Poland's deputy education minister called for the influential evolutionary theories of Charles Darwin not to be taught in the country's schools, branding them "lies."

And they are.

God bless Poland.

But they're more than lies as they are intent on poisoning the minds and spirits of our children with un-Godly thought.


47 posted on 10/14/2006 2:40:55 PM PDT by stultorum (dont hire illegal aliens)
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To: Crazieman
They teach it like the gospel truth, rather than scientific theory. Thats my only objection.

There are hundreds of theories taught in the typical biology textbook and curricula, the vast majority of which are taught entirely "matter of factly" and aren't even identified as "theories". Evolution is always among the few, if not the only, theory that is so identified, and it is invariably, and by far, the least dogmatically presented.

So how can this be your "only objection" when every other theory is taught far more dogmatically? Why don't you guys ever object to the theory of photosynthesis (for instance) being taught "as fact"?

The pretense that this is a matter for principle with antievolutionists is pointless. We all know it's special pleading, and for the fact of the matter, so do you.

48 posted on 10/14/2006 2:42:13 PM PDT by Stultis
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Calling the theory of evolution a "science" - calling something a thing which it is not

Ah, but evolution IS a science. It's the best explanation of how we got here, given the evidence available. It's modified as new information is discovered, ideas discarded or confirmed.

Personally, I don't see a problem with a Divine input into this process. There is, however, no evidence of a 6-day Creation, a global Flood etc etc: ie, th Biblical account of Creation is simply a story, no more than that.

49 posted on 10/14/2006 2:43:01 PM PDT by Da_Shrimp
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To: Junior
. . .you wouldn't accept the fossil record.

The fossil record does not offer an observed instance of man evolving from another species. It offers samples from which, by observation, we may reasonably infer as much. If one cannot tell the difference between direct observation (experience) and inference, how should one expect him to know the difference between science and philosophy?

50 posted on 10/14/2006 2:46:00 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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