Posted on 10/15/2006 2:16:41 PM PDT by libstripper
THE US Marine Corps has threatened to punish two military lawyers if they continue to speak publicly about reported prisoner abuse at Guantanamo Bay, a civilian colleague has said.
The threat to Lieutenant-Colonel Colby Vokey and Sergeant Heather Cerveny follows their report that guards bragged about beating prisoners, said Muneer Ahmad, a law professor at American University in Washington who helps in the defence of a Canadian suspect.
The order has heightened fears among the military defenders of Guantanamo prisoners that their careers will suffer for exposing flaws and injustices in the system, Professor Ahmad said at the weekend.
(Excerpt) Read more at smh.com.au ...
These two pixies are not just a couple, light-in-the-loafers civilian legal twits. They are Marines first, "lawyers" second. They need to STFU and stop playing politics with GITMO.
William Shakespeare: "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
Sounds like the good prof is muslim, so he could not possibly have an agenda, hmmm?
vaudine
Bill always was ahead of his times.
"Lawyer" and "Marine" just don't go together....
...Semper fi.
Everyone get's it right, Shakespeare's intentions notwithstanding, he tapped into a deep reservoir of cultural truth. Proven by it's timelessness.
In other words...the (use of) the quote is fraudelent but accurate?
BRIAN ROSS (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) Twenty-three-year-old Marine Sergeant Heather Cerveny was sent to Guantanamo Bay in late September as a legal aid to a marine lawyer representing a detainee. She has come back, now, with a story of what she says is unchecked abuse by guards there.
SERGEANT HEATHER CERVENY (UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS)
None of them looked like they cared. None of them looked shocked by it.
BRIAN ROSS (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) In a sworn affidavit filed with the Pentagon inspector general, Cerveny says, she met several navy prison guards at an on base club, where over drinks, they described, in detail, harsh, physical abuse of the detainees.
SERGEANT HEATHER CERVENY (UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS)
The one sailor specifically said, ‘I took the detainee by the head and smashed his head into the cell door.” Other ones specifically saying, ‘you know, today, that guy was annoying me. You know? I smacked him in the head.”
BRIAN ROSS (ABC NEWS)
(Voiceover) The sergeant says the guards told her they worked at camps five and six. And that such beatings of detainees were common and justified.
SERGEANT HEATHER CERVENY (UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS)
I initially asked him, what consequences - you know, what happened for you doing this to him? And he said nothing.
LOL!!! Thanks! I needed a good laugh!
If SJSAMPLE is also referred to as "nobody" then SJSAMPLE is quite correct. Otherwise SJSAMPLE is very wrong.
Please read the following excerpted from http://www.spectacle.org/797/finkel.html)
The argument of this remark as in fact being favorable to lawyers is a marvel of sophistry, twisting of the meaning of words in unfamiliar source, disregard of the evident intent of the original author and ad hominem attack. Whoever first came up with this interpretation surely must have been a lawyer.
The line is actually uttered by a character "Dick The Butcher". While he's a killer as evil as his name implies, he often makes highly comedic and amusing statements. The wisecracking villain is not an invention of modern action movies, it dates back to Shakespeare and beyond.
The setup for the "kill the lawyers" statement is the ending portion of a comedic relief part of a scene in Henry VI, part 2. Dick and another henchman, Smith are members of the gang of Jack Cade, a pretender to the throne. The built-up is long portion where Cade make vain boasts, which are cut down by sarcastic replies from the others. For example:
JACK CADE.You can almost hear the rim-shot after everything Dick or Smith say here.
Valiant I am.SMITH [aside].
'A must needs; for beggary is valiant.JACK CADE.
I am able to endure much.DICK [aside].
No question of that; for I have seen him whipp'd three market-days together.JACK CADE.
I fear neither sword nor fire.SMITH [aside].
He need not fear the sword; for his coat is of proof.DICK [aside].
But methinks he should stand in fear of fire, being burnt i' th'hand for stealing of sheep.
Cade proceeds to go more and more over the top, and begins to describe his absurd ideal world:
JACK CADE.Appreciated and encouraged, he continues on in this vein:
Be brave, then; for your captain is brave, and vows reformation. There shall be in England seven half-penny loaves sold for a penny: the three-hoop'd pot shall have ten hoops; and I will make it felony to drink small beer: all the realm shall be in common; and in Cheapside shall my palfrey go to grass: and when I am king,- as king I will be,-ALL.
God save your majesty!
JACK CADE.And here is where Dick speaks the famous line.
I thank you, good people:- there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers, and worship me their lord.
DICK.The audience must have doubled over in laughter at this. Far from "eliminating those who might stand in the way of a contemplated revolution" or portraying lawyers as "guardians of independent thinking", it's offered as the best feature imagined of yet for utopia. It's hilarious. A very rough and simplistic modern translation would be "When I'm the King, there'll be two cars in every garage, and a chicken in every pot" "AND NO LAWYERS". It's a clearly lawyer-bashing joke. This is further supported by the dialogue just afterwards (which is actually quite funny even now, and must have been hilarious when the idiom was contemporary):
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
DICK.He might just as well have been describing "shrink-wrap" software licensing agreements today in the last sentence. To understand what Cade is saying here, you have to know that documents of the time were likely parchment, and sealed with wax. So when he says "Some say the bees stings; but I say, 'tis the bee's wax". he's making an ironic comment somewhat akin to "Some men rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain pen". And the fact that he himself is an evil man only serves to heighten the irony, not discredit the sentiment - the more evil he is, the more the contrast is apparent.
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.JACK CADE.
Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.- How now! who's there?
It makes as much sense to conclude that since the "kill the lawyers" joke is expressed by villains, who later commit murderous deeds "there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score" is an approval of Libertarian thought, and a warning about Communists.
Now, just after this exchange, the scene changes tone. The gang commits the murder of the clerk of chatham. Here is the second level of Shakespeare's commentary on law and layers, where the murder is carried out according to scrupulous procedure, a parody of law:
JACK CADE.By this contrast Shakespeare thus makes in an alternating, connected, comedic and tragic manner the age-old point about the difference between *law* (and those who argue it) and *justice*. Cade makes up his "version" of law to his own ends, to the justification of his evil deeds, which is reminiscent of the context which commonly provokes "kill the lawyers" (where the phrase is in wry protest of actions thought to be the same in form, if not in degree). Far from being "out of context" the usage is more true to the original than most people know.
I am sorry for't: the man is a proper man, of mine honour; unless I find him guilty, he shall not die.- Come hither, sirrah, I must examine thee: what is thy name?
When you want to get the straight scoop, there's nothing like a bunch of drunken sailors and Marines sitting around the club talking to a woman. I find it strange that they didn't bring up all of their MOHs and Purple Hearts. Or maybe they did. LOL!
Bump
Please read post #12. The quote is accurate, is used in it's proper context, and is truly a lawyer bashing quote. It's the people who try to twist words, or leave out context, who are fraudulent (I'm not sure what you mean by "fraudelent" but I'll assume that you meant fraudulent).
Military discipline aside, paralegals who publicize aspects pertinent to a case in which their attorney is presently acting are unlikely to be paralegals very long.
I think Heather is thinking along the lines of a book and movie deal and maybe a guest shot on CSI: Gitmo.
My spelling of fraudelent was fraudulent but accurate.
An excellent little essay, and spot on regarding Shakespeare's intent with that scene, et seq.
solution:: transfer them to combat arms with next duty assignment clearing IEDs in Irog
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