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ARABIAN NIGHTMARES Iraq's Butchers Exploit Our Morality
New York Post ^ | Ralph Peters

Posted on 11/15/2006 12:44:36 PM PST by MaineVoter2002

YESTERDAY, 80 terrorists in police uniforms raided an Iraqi research institute in Baghdad, rounded up 100-plus male students, loaded them into vehicles in broad daylight and drove away.

They couldn't have pulled it off without the complicity of key elements within the Iraqi security services and the government: "our guys."...

(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: iraq; liberalism; pc; terrorism

1 posted on 11/15/2006 12:44:39 PM PST by MaineVoter2002
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To: MaineVoter2002
What really matters is what our forces are ordered - and permitted - to do. With political correctness permeating our government and even the upper echelons of the military, we never tried the one technique that has a solid track record of defeating insurgents if applied consistently: the rigorous imposition of public order.

That means killing the bad guys. Not winning their hearts and minds, placating them or bringing them into the government. Killing them.


Not that I'm any expert on the subject, but this seems logical to me. At the very least, it'd have been nice to see the US destroy Muqtada al-Sadr and his followers instead of letting them off the hook to regroup and regrow.
2 posted on 11/15/2006 12:54:54 PM PST by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: All
Excerpt:

With Iraqi society decomposing - or, at best, reverting to a medieval state with cell phones - the debate in Washington over whether to try to save the day by deploying more troops or withdrawing some is of secondary relevance.

What really matters is what our forces are ordered - and permitted - to do. With political correctness permeating our government and even the upper echelons of the military, we never tried the one technique that has a solid track record of defeating insurgents if applied consistently: the rigorous imposition of public order.

That means killing the bad guys. Not winning their hearts and minds, placating them or bringing them into the government. Killing them.

If you're not willing to lay down a rule that any Iraqi or foreign terrorist masquerading as a security official or military member will be shot, you can't win. And that's just one example of the type of sternness this sort of fight requires.

With the situation in Iraq deteriorating daily, sending more troops would simply offer our enemies more targets - unless we decided to use our soldiers and Marines for the primary purpose for which they exist: To fight.

Of course, we've made a decisive shift in our behavior difficult. After empowering a sectarian regime before imposing order in the streets, we would have to defy an elected government. Leading voices in the Baghdad regime - starting with Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki - would demand that we halt any serious effort to defeat Shia militias and eliminate their death squads.

Killing Sunni Arabs would be fine, of course. The Maliki government's reason for being is to promote Shia power.

Reportedly, our CentCom commander, Gen. George Abizaid, just had a "come to Jesus meeting" (metaphor fully intended) with Maliki, warning him that our continued support is contingent on the government moving to impose public order and protect all of Iraq's people. The result is predictable: A few law-enforcement gestures by daylight, some reshuffled government appointments - and more sectarian killing.

From the Iraqi perspective, we're of less and less relevance. They're sure we'll leave. And every faction is determined to do as much damage as possible to the other before we go. Our troops have become human shields for our enemies.

To master Iraq now - if it could be done - we'd have to fight every faction except the Kurds. Are we willing to do that? Are we willing to kill mass murderers and cold-blooded executioners on the spot?

If not, we can't win, no matter what else we do.

Arrest them? We've tried that. Iraq's judges are so partisan or so terrified (or both) that they release the worst thugs within weeks - sometimes within days.

How would you like to be one of Iraq's handful of relatively honest cops knowing that any terrorist or sectarian butcher you bust is going to be back on the block before your next payday? And yeah, they know where you live.

Our "humanity" is cowardice masquerading as morality. We're protecting self-appointed religious executioners with our emphasis on a "universal code of behavior" that only exists in our fantasies. By letting the thugs run the streets, we've abandoned the millions of Iraqis who really would prefer peaceful lives and a modicum of progress.

We're blind to the fundamental moral travesty in Iraq (and elsewhere): Spare the killers in the name of human rights, and you deprive the overwhelming majority of the population of their human rights. Instead of being proud of ourselves for our "moral superiority," we should be ashamed to the depths of our souls.

We're not really the enemy of the terrorists, militiamen and insurgents. We're their enablers. In the end, the future of Iraq will be determined by its people. The question is, which people?

Our naive version of wartime morality handed Iraq to the murderers. Will our excuse for a sectarian bloodbath be that we "behaved with restraint?"

Any code of ethics that squanders the lives of tens of thousands and the future of millions so we can "claim the moral high ground" is hypocrisy worthy of the Europeans who made excuses for the Holocaust.

If we want to give Iraq's silent - and terrified - majority a last chance, we would have to accept the world's condemnation for killing the killers. If we are unwilling to do that, Iraq's finished.

3 posted on 11/15/2006 12:56:49 PM PST by MaineVoter2002 (www.cafenetamerica.com)
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To: MaineVoter2002

I tend to agree that killing them is the only option. They are inhuman, they need to be destroyed.


4 posted on 11/15/2006 12:57:39 PM PST by McGavin999 (Republicans take out our trash, Democrats re-elect theirs)
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To: AnotherUnixGeek

We sometimes forget other enemies are watching how we fight. It's no wonder Iran and North Korea have become quite brave lately.


5 posted on 11/15/2006 12:58:06 PM PST by MaineVoter2002 (www.cafenetamerica.com)
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To: McGavin999
I tend to agree that killing them is the only option. They are inhuman, they need to be destroyed.

Cool! So just point out which ones need killin' and which ones are innocent civilians and we're all set.

6 posted on 11/15/2006 12:59:08 PM PST by Wormwood (Partition Iraq NOW!)
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To: Wormwood

Well, when you arrest the ones who are doing the killing, just shoot them instead of taking them in so they can be released. Or better yet, just turn them over to the Iraqi troops that you know are loyal.


7 posted on 11/15/2006 1:01:13 PM PST by McGavin999 (Republicans take out our trash, Democrats re-elect theirs)
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To: MaineVoter2002
If we want to give Iraq's silent - and terrified - majority a last chance, we would have to accept the world's condemnation for killing the killers. If we are unwilling to do that, Iraq's finished.

It rests in the hands of the POTUS. I wish I knew what his thoughts on the matter are.

8 posted on 11/15/2006 1:01:54 PM PST by SIDENET (Everybody was kung-fu fighting)
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To: Wormwood

War is Hell. Always has been. We either let our troops kill the bad guy or we should do them a big favor and let them come home.


9 posted on 11/15/2006 1:02:19 PM PST by MaineVoter2002 (www.cafenetamerica.com)
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To: Wormwood

"Cool! So just point out which ones need killin' and which ones are innocent civilians and we're all set."

All the ones you can see. The rest are innocent civilians.


10 posted on 11/15/2006 1:02:54 PM PST by mutley
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To: MaineVoter2002
War is Hell. Always has been. We either let our troops kill the bad guy or we should do them a big favor and let them come home.

Of course. But how do you separate the bad guys from the good guys when you are an occupying force?

11 posted on 11/15/2006 1:05:01 PM PST by Wormwood (Partition Iraq NOW!)
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To: MaineVoter2002

Only a less civilized America can survive.


12 posted on 11/15/2006 1:07:10 PM PST by BadAndy (Speaking truth to wackos)
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To: Wormwood

I would consider al-Sadr to be one of the bad ones. But that's just me, I guess.


13 posted on 11/15/2006 1:07:45 PM PST by MaineVoter2002 (www.cafenetamerica.com)
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To: mutley
All the ones you can see. The rest are innocent civilians.

Somehow I doubt that a general extermination order will be forthcoming. Sorry.

These are U.S soldiers, not the Einsatzgruppen.

14 posted on 11/15/2006 1:08:54 PM PST by Wormwood (Partition Iraq NOW!)
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To: AnotherUnixGeek

Gotta kill the badguys - and it's long past time we started. It won't be squeaky clean either, as distinguishing between who needs killing and who doesn't won't be easy and we won't have the luxury of spending too much time deciding.


15 posted on 11/15/2006 1:11:10 PM PST by Rummyfan (Iraq: Give therapeutic violence a chance!)
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To: McGavin999
Well, when you arrest the ones who are doing the killing, just shoot them instead of taking them in so they can be released.

Agreed.

Or better yet, just turn them over to the Iraqi troops that you know are loyal.

That's the problem...we don;t know who they are. It seems that most of them place loyalty to militia above loyalty to government anyway.

16 posted on 11/15/2006 1:12:22 PM PST by Wormwood (Partition Iraq NOW!)
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To: MaineVoter2002
I would consider al-Sadr to be one of the bad ones. But that's just me, I guess.

Ol' Mooqie should be Number One on the Hit List! If he just happens to stop a bullet.... oh well!

17 posted on 11/15/2006 1:12:30 PM PST by Rummyfan (Iraq: Give therapeutic violence a chance!)
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To: Wormwood

"Somehow I doubt that a general extermination order will be forthcoming. Sorry."

Of course, you're right. But if it were to happen, I'm not sure I'd lose sleep over it. Sorry.

Are nuclear weapons a general extermination order?


18 posted on 11/15/2006 1:14:03 PM PST by mutley
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To: MaineVoter2002; Wormwood
I would consider al-Sadr to be one of the bad ones. But that's just me, I guess.

When it comes to bad guys, he's one of the absolute worst.

And he is encouraged by the Democrats' support of him and his ilk with all their stupid cut-and-run talk. He can smell victory when he hears idiots like Levin and Kucinich running their mouths and sees CNN jumping up and down to get their comments broadcast out to the world.

19 posted on 11/15/2006 1:24:24 PM PST by Allegra (Declaring Full Jihad on the Cut-and-Run Surrender Monkeys)
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To: mutley
But if it were to happen, I'm not sure I'd lose sleep over it. Sorry.

Are nuclear weapons a general extermination order?

Easy for you to say. Thank goodness you are not empowered to give orders.

20 posted on 11/15/2006 1:26:14 PM PST by Allegra (Declaring Full Jihad on the Cut-and-Run Surrender Monkeys)
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To: Allegra
And he is encouraged by the Democrats' support of him...

Just like the VC. A shame.

21 posted on 11/15/2006 1:28:20 PM PST by MaineVoter2002 (www.cafenetamerica.com)
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To: Wormwood

Yes they do. If they're Peshmerga, they can be trusted.


22 posted on 11/15/2006 1:29:05 PM PST by McGavin999 (Republicans take out our trash, Democrats re-elect theirs)
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To: MaineVoter2002
"Insurgents" caught planting bombs, carrying bombs, making bombs, financing bombing, plotting bombings and any activities related to mass murder should be tried and summarily executed by the Iraqi authorities. Anything else, besides gathering intel, is a waste of time and sends the wrong message to the enemy.
23 posted on 11/15/2006 1:29:45 PM PST by elhombrelibre (Bush underestimated the Democrats ability to rewrite their history with MSM help.)
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To: MaineVoter2002
"...the mass kidnapping also highlights the feebleness of our attempts to overcome ruthless enemies with generosity and good manners."

We can't teach the savage how to be a gentleman if he won't listen. And even their religious leaders aren't helping with the transition to gentlemen.

So what's left for us?

Good question.

24 posted on 11/15/2006 1:32:28 PM PST by ThirstyMan (hysteria: the elixir of the Left that trumps all reason)
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To: MaineVoter2002

Ralph is right.Too bad he often disses the USAF.


25 posted on 11/15/2006 1:47:50 PM PST by larryjohnson (USAF(Ret))
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To: MaineVoter2002
We need to test this assumption:

In the end, the future of Iraq will be determined by its people

Let's nuke Iran into a parking lot and see if the reduction in money, munitions and manpower for the "insurgents" makes a difference. At least the situation in Iraq might then be "determined by its people".

As in the Vietnam War, the Malaise party does not want us to identify and fight our real enemy. As then, the Democrats want us to lose.
26 posted on 11/15/2006 2:05:06 PM PST by Ragnar54
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To: MaineVoter2002

<< ARABIAN NIGHTMARES: Iraq's Butchers Exploit Our Morality >>

Just like America's "Democrats!"


27 posted on 11/15/2006 2:21:52 PM PST by Brian Allen ("Moral issues are always terribly complex, for someone without principles." - G K Chesterton)
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To: Allegra

"Easy for you to say. Thank goodness you are not empowered to give orders."

Did the detonations over Hiroshima and Nagasaki discriminate?


28 posted on 11/15/2006 2:35:15 PM PST by mutley
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To: MaineVoter2002

Time for Colonel Kurtz?


29 posted on 11/15/2006 8:27:55 PM PST by Hoosier-Daddy (It's a fight to the death with Democrats.)
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To: mutley
Did the detonations over Hiroshima and Nagasaki discriminate?

That was my point. It's easy for you to advocate nukes...from the comfort of our home of office back in the U.S.

That's why I'm glad you're not calling the shots. I'm pretty sure I speak on behalf of the vast numbers of us Americans who are in Iraq.

30 posted on 11/15/2006 9:56:14 PM PST by Allegra (Declaring Full Jihad on the Cut-and-Run Surrender Monkeys)
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To: McGavin999; MaineVoter2002; SIDENET; mutley; Wormwood; Rummyfan; Allegra
I'm of the opinion that we redeploy our forces, and those of our allies, Eastward, to an area bounded by Al Kut to Iran, and South to Al Basra, and possibly Al Buayyah and to Umm Qasr to Kuwait.

Secure that area, and build our USAF Bases, US Army Bases, and US Naval Bases, that we have earned in Iraq with our Armed Forces wonderful and Heroic efforts!

Let Iraq have their Civil War - who cares - we'll be in place for the next round - Iran!

Most of the materials, equipment, and manpower, are already in Iraq, so why not use them to secure our own, USA-owned facilities there? We can lease them from Iraq after islamania is destroyed, not unlike Guantanamo is leased from Cuba.

Stay well armed and safe..............FRegards

31 posted on 11/15/2006 10:26:11 PM PST by gonzo (I'm not confused anymore. Now I'm sure we have to completely destroy Islam, and FAST!!)
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To: MaineVoter2002; McGavin999; Wormwood; SIDENET; Thunder90; DoctorZIn; Matchett-PI; M Kehoe; ...
"...It rests in the hands of the POTUS. I wish I knew what his thoughts on the matter are..."

I agree that it truly is in President Bushs' hands. He's on an Asian tour now, stopping for a quick meeting in Russia, then on to several other Countries to take-care-of-business, then back home.

There have been several seemingly innocuous events over the past few months, and they made me notice, so speculation was inevitable. Today, for example, THIS ITEM caught my eye. A few days ago, I posted THIS THREAD, a possible outcome of several events that had happenned. I'm still gathering data, and this time, I'm double-copying my reference bookmarks.

Stay well armed and safe.................FRegards

32 posted on 11/15/2006 10:55:38 PM PST by gonzo (I'm not confused anymore. Now I'm sure we have to completely destroy Islam, and FAST!!)
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To: gonzo

Very, very interesting gonzo. BTW, sure is nice to see you!


33 posted on 11/16/2006 3:09:22 AM PST by McGavin999 (Republicans take out our trash, Democrats re-elect theirs)
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To: Wormwood

Anyone who runs is an enemy...

...Anyone who stays is a well-discplined enemy.

:-P


34 posted on 11/16/2006 3:46:10 AM PST by gogogodzilla (Republicans only win if they are conservative. Woe befalls any who forget that.)
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To: Wormwood
Somehow I doubt that a general extermination order will be forthcoming. Sorry. These are U.S soldiers, not the Einsatzgruppen.

Perhaps not that far, but maybe a Phoenix Program ?

35 posted on 11/16/2006 3:56:09 AM PST by SauronOfMordor (A planned society is most appealing to those with the arrogance to think they will be the planners)
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To: McGavin999
"...Very, very interesting gonzo. BTW, sure is nice to see you!..."

Good to see you too, McGavin999! Us 'olders' are kinda lost in a sea of FReepers anymore, but that's a good thing. Lotsa different ideas and viewpoints, and this site has become the best news source ever!

Stay well armed and safe - there's a lotta mosques in the USA..............FRegards

36 posted on 11/16/2006 1:13:11 PM PST by gonzo (I'm not confused anymore. Now I'm sure we have to completely destroy Islam, and FAST!!)
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To: gonzo
***YESTERDAY, 80 terrorists in police uniforms raided an Iraqi research institute in Baghdad, rounded up 100-plus male students, loaded them into vehicles in broad daylight and drove away***

A week ago a mob of media slugs, masquerading as decent american citizens, rounded up millions of voters and herded them into election polls to vote for things for which they had no understanding.

37 posted on 11/17/2006 2:17:25 PM PST by Bob Ireland (The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise)
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To: MaineVoter2002
To master Iraq now - if it could be done - we'd have to fight every faction except the Kurds. Are we willing to do that? Are we willing to kill mass murderers and cold-blooded executioners on the spot?

At last, someone who knows how to win, but we wont be allowed to do it before we leave.

38 posted on 11/17/2006 8:07:43 PM PST by Critical Bill (An awareness of the Muslim contradiction must gnaw in even the dullest fundamentalist brain.)
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To: Critical Bill
It will be difficult as long as we have liberals supporting the enemy on national and international discussion boards on USENET
39 posted on 11/17/2006 9:00:50 PM PST by MaineVoter2002 (www.cafenetamerica.com)
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