Posted on 12/02/2006 11:12:52 PM PST by paulat
And we will be hearing it again, come this week, and the true believers will be shouting everyone down.
It is devastating because it is the abnormal admission for this policy maker who has been famously optomistic, who was on his way out because his policy has failed, and who is committing a last minute about face and admitting it.
Okay, but aside from that... ;-)
Both sides enjoy being able to leak sensitive materials for political gain. If this were not the case, legislation would be introduced by either party to stamp out the practice.
In other words, the government turns a blind eye to congressional staffers doing what would put a CIA agent in jail for the rest of his life, because of politics. It's pretty much that simple.
If we pull out of the war before the mission is finished, as I now think we inevitably will, we will have created a far worse situation for our national security than we had with Saddam. The nation better grow some backbone and fast. Alas I fear that it sounds like most Americans are already ready to give up.
Mr. Smith goes to Washington.
Too bad the Republicans has no Mr. Smith in Washington.
I did however witness one who came close, Mr. Coburn and, I'm not from his state. A stand up guy in many respects, politically speaking.
*ping*
Since the memo was allegedly written before the election, I'd have to say "yes".
Ever consider that because the liberal faction in this nation upon winning control of Congress, that faction that were opposed to the removal of Saddam from the get go, would not require the SecDef to at least be contemplating military plans under liberal cut-n-run ideology?
No. The SecDef serves at the pleasure of the President, not Congress. While the military has contingency plans for pretty much everything, Sec Rumsfelds' memo was discussing broad policy changes. That's outside of Congress's span of control. Their influence over the war is indirect, at best.
Ah, but see Rummy was not running for election, he was not leading the Defense Department based upon polllllll results.
No. The SecDef serves at the pleasure of the President, not Congress. While the military has contingency plans for pretty much everything, Sec Rumsfelds' memo was discussing broad policy changes. That's outside of Congress's span of control. Their influence over the war is indirect, at best.
Ah ha tell that to the small minded, self centered I am somebody like William Kristol and John McCain who have been after Rummy's head for years.
How old were you during Vietnam? Congress was every bit as intrusive into Vietnam to the level they GOT Nixon. Nixon was a saint compared to the Clintons, yet they kept their poll ratings around 66%. No matter what tawdry, trailer park trash, personal acts they performed, or their can't equalize/sell out the US fast enough political policies were.
In the event you are tooo young to remember Vietnam it was the leftist that gave the imprint that we lost and then as now demonstrated under the leadership of the warrior JFKerry led the reenactment charge of fighting US from within just as they had then. What has not been during this war was the academic violence and looting in major people hubs
Some of US took 9/11/01 as a sign these killers were here in our midst. Now apparently enough liberals saw the same thing cause they voted to authorize US to stand against them in their piles of sand rather than continuing the policy of hunt and prosecute.
Congress is, when they so choose, depending upon whatever political gain they can make will micromanage any war. What were they doing under Clinton's great war in the Balkans???? Do you remember who was defense secretary under the Clintons??? How many leaks were there, the most we ever learned about the Clinton White House is drips and drabs from Linda Tripp, cause the Congress sealed away the public actions of Clintons and NOBODY dared leak. Anybody who dared to pen a contrary word about anything Clintons was declared a nutjob or a right-wing extremists. And Hillry dares to accuse this administration of 'secrecy', it is like living in a warped world.
Congrats.
I see it as being almost certainly leaked deliberately, with Rummy's agreement if not actually on his own recognizance.
A few questions:
Where and how would he get information that would allow him to draw these conclusions?
What process led to his writing this memo?
Was he fired or did he resign?
I'm beginning to think he just walked. A possible scenario is him becoming aware that what we were doing wasn't working. But the generals, Joint Chiefs, et al, were continuing to support the Big Military line, the 'Commanders in the Field' were continuing to parrot the words that would ensure the continuance of their careers, every other voice heard by the President was for 'staying the course'. And the President listened to the 'experts', and was loyal to them.
Rummy would not be the first high government official who was a good soldier for his Administration, who was more than ready to speak his own mind after leaving.
That would be zero.
Congress was every bit as intrusive into Vietnam to the level they GOT Nixon.
From what the musty old records of ages past suggest, President Nixon got himself. Aside from that, and the cutting off of military funding and support to the South Koreans, the war was micromanged by the Pentagon and the Executive branch. Congressional hearings and irresponsible grandstanding may affect public opinion, but they're not directly controlling anything. Backseat driving is irritating, but unless they physically grab the wheel, like they did in 74 with the Foriegn Assistance Act, it's just talk.
In the event you are tooo young to remember Vietnam it was the leftist that gave the imprint that we lost and then as now demonstrated under the leadership of the warrior JFKerry led the reenactment charge of fighting US from within just as they had then.
Apparently I'm tooo young to put together a gem of a sentance like this. Practice makes perfect, I guess. Much like our tendency to run wars with brilliant tactics and asinine strategy. It just gets better with age. We're again in the position of having won every single battle, risking losing the war, and shaking our fist at the media over it. It's getting to be a habit with us.
So, like last time, the troops kicked ass, the generals and Executive branch cut them off at the knees with political bull$%@#, and the media put the worst of it on TV. You figure that we'd have learned our lesson. (Good troops + dumb strategy) x hostile media = failure.
It's surely written is a broad, executive level format. No nuts and bolts, just conceptual issues that would indicate a policymaker level discussion. The distribution was probably a little bigger than you have, but possibly not by much.
I see it as being almost certainly leaked deliberately, with Rummy's agreement if not actually on his own recognizance.
Possible, I suppose. Reflexively, I don't like the concept of a SecDef leaking something to a major newspaper, but these are strange times. In all seriousness, the NYT isn't anywhere Rummy would go happily, but if you're trying to cover your tracks, it's the place to go with classified documents.
iWhere and how would he get information that would allow him to draw these conclusions?
There are competing schools of thought within the government, military, and intelligence circles, all advocating different courses of action. There's no shortage of ideas, but what makes the cut in a PowerPoint briefing is often limited to what the briefee wants to see.
What process led to his writing this memo?
Only Rummy could answer that one. You could speculate anything from "routine" to "pre-planned ass covering".
Was he fired or did he resign?
I'm with you on this one. I think he walked. The timing is simply too poor to be anything other than a moment of passion, take this job and shove it kind of thing.
A possible scenario is him becoming aware that what we were doing wasn't working. ... And the President listened to the 'experts', and was loyal to them.
As far as your first point, I really don't know. I'm sure the book will explain it all, whenever he gets around to writing it. I have a hard time imagining a world where Rummy was faking the funk because it was his job. I think he was a true believer, at least until very close to the end.
As to the second point, 'experts' are relative things, and while you can get to be a very popular analyst in the short run by portraying things in a certain way, sticking to the harsh truth is the better bet. After 4 years of 'tailored' analysis, I think that the harsh truthers are at least being heard again. President Bush is in many ways a great man, but his greatest weakness may be his tendency to show absolute loyalty to "loyal" people that tell him what he wants to hear. Like, people who's first name is "General", for instance.
Rummy would not be the first high government official who was a good soldier for his Administration, who was more than ready to speak his own mind after leaving.
I don't think we'll see him on the talk show circuit anytime soon, but we may see a book or two after Iraq cools off. I doubt Rummy will say anything while troops are still in harms way, if he thinks it will hurt morale.
..I think he was a true believer, at least until very close to the end..
Right. I could have been more clear about that. I'm sure he felt all along that we were on the right track and just had to stay with it. But at some point, maybe 6 months ago, some timing like that, either some particukar event or maybe just an accumulation of events brought him to the conclusion that it was all not working. After that point, he was being a 'good soldier' in the sense that he would not rock the boat publicly; his increasing disagreement would have been privately communicated.
And I'll bet the 'publication' of the memo was probably cleared with Bush, or in co-operation with him. If I'm GWB and Sec Def resigns because he's become fed up with an Iraq strategy that he no longer believes in, what are my options? I know Rumsfeld is more loyal to the country that he is to me, and will not be silent about his views of what will best serve the national interest. The way to best mitigate the political damage is to let it be known in advance that Rumsfeld was considering a new strategy, and that the President himself is 'open' to considering these new ideas.
I myself have a hard time thinking that Donald Rumsfeld would resort to a leak behind his boss's back under any circumstances. I have to think it was co-ordinated with the White House... but as you say, 'when he writes his book, we'll know ..'
Below the Line (less attractive options):
Got to say I hope not. Plans are always being prepared, plans way beyond this simple executive memo.
This is very disturbing to me as well, why in the hell are the leaker's not being prosecuted....unless it is being leaked by "our" side...that too I find despicable.It had to be leaked by someone on "our" side. These memos are between specific senior advisor's and the President. I doubt they're widely circulated.
It pains me to have posted ...It may be painful but I think it's necessary. Stay or go, good men or bad, it's time to get some new minds on the job. Rumsfeld sounds worn out and drained of new ideas.
It wasn't just the administration but the supporters of the administration (i.e. *us*) that didn't ask the right questions in time and didn't have the guts to do anything about it.Right. It's not PC on these forums to criticize the Administration. This has allowed what might have been small correctable mistakes to turn into devastating set in stone mistakes.
What is dismaying to me is that we allow anything published by the Times to guide our thinking into the worst of times. We seem to never learn.Like I said earlier, this memo and the Hadley memo had to be leaked by people pretty high up in the Administration. I don't think it matters whether it was in the New York Times or the Washington Times. Who leaked it and why is a lot more important question.
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