Posted on 12/28/2006 4:15:11 PM PST by quesney
In nearly every interview about my book, Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism,I am asked whether I am an atheist or an agnostic. The bias--a profoundly American bias--implicit in this question is that only an "unbeliever" would want to write a historical work about the secular influences on the founding and development of our nation.
[...]
What we ought to be talking about are decent human values that can be subscribed to by Americans of any faith or no faith. I could not care less whether any elected official believes in God: I care about what he or she does on earth. As an atheist, I believe precisely what the Bible says on this subject: "By their fruits ye shall know them."
(Excerpt) Read more at newsweek.washingtonpost.com ...
Don't try to turn this into an Islamic thing. This is about you and your kind being so freaking scared of who you are that you feel the need to attack other people who are comfortable with themselves. I would take a thousand atheists over one hypocritical bible thumper anyday. At least they're honest.
Wrong, only an "unbeliever" would consider secularists "free thinkers".
I'm Roman Catholic, pretty sure I'm not allowed to save anyone. Then again, that could be my game plan for tomorrow. Make breakfast, do a load of laundry, take the kids shopping, save an atheist, feed the dog, make dinner.
I agree with you....and religious professions are just one element I will use to determine who to vote for.
I agree there are a lot of Christians who get deluded (Barak Obama with Rick Warren comes to mind) when people claim religious belief. Real religion is shown in how one lives--so said St. James in the New Testament.
However, just because someone is known as a great guy--and is non-religious or atheist--doesn't make me want to vote for him--as morality is a lot more than if others think you are a "good person."
"just because they say they believe in God or Jesus"
"What about when more and more of them believe in Allah. Will you feel better then?"
What has one to do with the other?
Lying Christian hypocrites and murderous muslims are all unacceptable.
Um... I don't seem to be the "one attacking" anybody here, but whatever.
It's true. That's not to say that there aren't any reasonable or decent people (by human standards) who don't believe in God, but one can trot out all sorts of statistics that would support that believers do behave better in society in general.
I couldn't agree more and that was exactly my point. My barometer, as it were, is not measured by religious affilliaton or lack thereof. It's measured by what I observe.
You seem to be confusing morality with spirituality.
I am not a Jew - but I follow the Ten Commandments - have them posted above my computer.
Will all due respect, that's crap. That may have been the case 200 years ago, it is not so now.
People behave because they believe in Heaven and Hell, or because they understand that there are certain requirements (we call them civil laws) to maintain a society in which they and their children can live and thrive.
It was the search for the Creator and the wisdom of our ancestors that created a spiritual basis for their survival and that of future generations. Such wisdom is both remarkable and prescient.
When faced with a temptation in the darkness, knowing that the satisfaction of it will cause harm to others, and the act of satisfaction can be believed to stay hidden, a man with no anchor to a power higher than limited human surveilance has a greater vocabulary to rationalize his wish to yield. 
Your assumption is that someone needs a carrot on a stick.
The brave new atheists on this thread throw out concepts such as "moral" and "decent", as in "as long as he's moral and decent", etc. Moral and decent according to whom? Osama? Obama? Richard Dawkins? Leading American atheist "thinker" Woody Allen? If we have to spell it out, "if there is no God, anything is permitted" -- attributed to Dostoyevsky. Sorry Mr Atheist, but moral and decent, is anything any atheist thinks it's moral and decent. Anything.
Actually, I don't confuse morality with "spirituality" (whatever that is)--but worship of God is essential to morality--according to Christ.
Jesus' 2 Commands (which He said ALL of God's laws "hung on"), above even the 10 Commandments, are, as I stated earlier in this post, love of God, and love of neighbor.
Am I saying Christ indicated that if a person loves his fellow man without loving or worshiping God he is immoral? Correct. And I would add it is impossible to thoroughly love others if you don't love God. There are a lot of nice decent atheists...who treat others well, however, their love of others is incomplete.
Does that make those who claim to love God without loving their fellow man moral? Of course not, one does not exist without the other--but love of God must come first (while still being inseparable from love of man). Love of God, love of man, that is ethics--and also the essential message of the 10 Commandments.
As a Christian, I would also add, that without the grace of God giving a man a new heart, love of God and love of man is as impossible as is perfectly following all the 10 Commandments all the time. That grace is offered through Jesus Christ.
It generally does a better job than non-religion. All moral and just societies are based on religious values. Societies that reject religious teaching inevitably reject morality as well.
Every time I mention that I have 9 kids, I am asked whether I am a Catholic or a Mormon.
Then I want to propose that EVERY good gift comes from the Father through the Son. And that's true as stated, "irregardless" of the, ahem, belief system (if any) of the recipient of those gifts.
YES, I think that ethical thinking is likely to be more better if one is at least wrestling with the "summary of the law", but I'll go to the mat for the notion that no good thinking of any kind happens without God's being intimately involved, whether His presence and help is asked for, looked for, known, or unknown.
And, treading where I have no bidnis, I'll say that SOME atheists who have committed themselves to following their reason wherever it leads have at least avoided the spiritual trap of treating the big 'T' Truth like it belonged to them or they'd done a corner in the Truth market, and humble themselves and conform themselves to their best take on where their best efforts lead them.
It is hard for me to imagine that The Lord, who said,"I am the ... Truth,..." is not somehow involved gracioulsy in their forming their commitment to the truth.
We, I most especially, have to understand and accept that by our moral failings, our sins, and especially our sins in discourse and in interpersonal relationships, have encouraged many who would love the Truth if they knew Him, to doubt anything we and our co-religionists say. And though, as we believe, Jesus in making His Church "apostolic" has given us a responsibility which we have frequently dodged or betrayed, yet, I think (and will go to the mat for) He continues to seek out those who will unlock the doors and let some glimmer of light in, who will serve the alien truth rather than the domestic desire. And when we, by our actions, have made His name repulsive, I think He in His mercy is content to enter and remain incognito, at least for a while.
Paul, misunderstanding dreadfully, in the name of what he thought was "true religion" persecuted us. But at least he followed where he thought God was leading him. And we know that, since Paul, God has knocked many good men and women off their asses, and by dashing them, unseeing, to the ground has finally perfected all their gifts and fiery commitment and set them in the right direction.
I'll tend to bet, therefore, on an atheist who is ready to die for a truth as best he can understand it over a Catholic who thinks he's tamed God and made Him safe. The atheist may wake up one day and finally know who the Truth was whom he sought and to whom he committed himself. The Catholic may pull himself out of the cold water and, leaving others to drown, start looking for a way to buy God off, and when the skies do not crack and reveal his poltroonery and selfishness he may conclude he succeeded.
This near Atheist believes that you have a severe case of hubris. Who are you to criticize anyone who seeks the metaphysical or the lack thereof in good faith, and while so seeking, tries to do right while on this mortal coil, as beest they can? I recoil from you sentiments. They just strike me as so wrong, at a gut level. JMO.
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