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To: Anti-Bubba182

The irony is that Islam was once the most sophisticated an learned culture in the world. While we were wallowing in wattle and daub muslims were building great centers of learning. Something went terribly awry in Islam. Now Islam has become a synonym for violent, mindless reaction and corruption.


6 posted on 12/31/2006 8:31:14 PM PST by tomcorn
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To: tomcorn
"The irony is that Islam was once the most sophisticated an learned culture in the world."

That was true until the Christian West freed itself from an Orthodoxy that surpressed science and individual choice. Islam got worse and paid the price. They are not getting better.

11 posted on 12/31/2006 8:40:29 PM PST by Anti-Bubba182
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To: tomcorn
It is a myth that Islam had a golden age in which it was advancing Human Learning, while the West was moving backward.

Islam had access to resources from Greeks, Romans, Chaldean Christians, and Indian Hindus and because of these non-Muslim resources, the Arabs were more advanced than the West during that period of time when the West was largely separated from these ancient resources.

But Islam did little with what it inherited. There were few actual advances made during this Islamic Golden Age.

And when the West re-claimed the classical learning the new era became proclaimed as the Renaissance. And we've been far ahead ever since.

14 posted on 12/31/2006 8:42:30 PM PST by ClearCase_guy (Enoch Powell was right.)
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To: tomcorn; Anti-Bubba182; ClearCase_guy
"The irony is that Islam was once the most sophisticated an learned culture in the world."

Bull!

The Golden Age of Islam is a Myth

What Arab Civilization?

There is not part of Islam that is not a lie.

Hank

18 posted on 12/31/2006 8:52:30 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: tomcorn
That was never true. They stole a lot of stuff from the Indians (the numeric system, e.g.) and other advanced civilizations. That knowledge was temporarily cut off from the West by the collapse of Rome. But it returned fairly quickly and Europe ran with the ball.

Islam on the other hand got hold of the information centuries earlier but did nothing with it. Ever.

Also, the idea of "Dark Ages" was a Victorian construct. Things actually weren't as dark as they were painted by the Victorians, who loved to pigeonhole things. The Middle Ages were full of music, art, architecture, faith, love, chivalry -- even though a good deal of the knowledge of the Roman Empire was (temporarily) lost.

23 posted on 12/31/2006 8:59:26 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: tomcorn
The irony is that Islam was once the most sophisticated an learned culture in the world.

The period of enlightenment in the Middle East was mostly before the rule of Islam. Baghdad was a center of culture, science, learning, and beauty. This was before the Islamic expansion and conquest. The real Irony is the Middle East would be the major center of power, learning, science and knowledge if not for Islam. Islamic doctrine laid waste to a great civilization. It reminds of the lyrics from one of Bob Dylan's songs, "and you threw it all away."

37 posted on 12/31/2006 9:52:58 PM PST by cpdiii (Oil Field Trash and proud of it, Geologist, Pilot, Pharmacist, Iconoclast)
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To: tomcorn; CarrotAndStick; Arjun; RusIvan; kosta50
The irony is that Islam was once the most sophisticated an learned culture in the world. While we were wallowing in wattle and daub muslims were building great centers of learning. Something went terribly awry in Islam. Now Islam has become a synonym for violent, mindless reaction and corruption.

Islam was never a sophisticated and / or learned culture. Islam in it's "Golden Age" from the 8th to the 12th century was one in which there were Islamic rulers ruling over vast numbers of Christians and Jews (in Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, Israel, North Africa, Spain), Zoroastrians (in Iraq, Iran) and Hindus and Buddhists (in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Central Asia etc.)

As the numbers of the "infidels" dwindled, the society as a whole decayed -- with more Muslime %s, more decay. All "Islamic" thought and "discoveries" are really by the cultures that were decimated by the cult of Islam -- e.g. "arabic" numerals were actually developed in Hindustan -- India, nearly a millenia before the Muslimes usurped it and passed it off as their own. Omar Khayyam was a PERSIAN poet who was hardly Muslime. The fabulous wealth of the Ummayyad Caliphate in Baghdad was due to Christians.

Thank God the Mongols came and destroyed these scum
49 posted on 12/31/2006 10:58:15 PM PST by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: tomcorn

Oh please, Islam was never advanced. It was a warrior cult that took over other Middle Eastern societies that actually were advanced, ranging from Iraq and Iran to Spain. The learning came from the cultures Islam conquered, but in all cases it extinguished learning, freedom and art within 100 years of its arrival.


50 posted on 12/31/2006 11:00:11 PM PST by livius
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To: tomcorn
The irony is that Islam was once the most sophisticated an learned culture in the world. While we were wallowing in wattle and daub muslims were building great centers of learning. Something went terribly awry in Islam. Now Islam has become a synonym for violent, mindless reaction and corruption.

What Arab Civilization?

This letter was sent to Carly Fiorina, CEO of Hewlett Packard Corporation, in response to a speech given by her on September 26, 2001. -------

November 7, 2001

Carly Fiorina Hewlett-Packard 3000 Hanover Street Palo Alto, CA 94304-1185

Dear Madame Fiorina:

It is with great interest that I read your speech delivered on September 26, 2001, titled "Technology, Business and Our way of Life: What's Next" [sic]. I was particularly interested in the story you told at the end of your speech, about the Arab/Muslim civilization. As an Assyrian, a non-Arab, Christian native of the Middle East, whose ancestors reach back to 5000 B.C., I wish to clarify some points you made in this little story, and to alert you to the dangers of unwittingly being drawn into the Arabist/Islamist ideology, which seeks to assimilate all cultures and religions into the Arab/Islamic fold.

I know you are a very busy woman, but please find ten minutes to read what follows, as it is a perspective that you will not likely get from anywhere else. I will answer some of the specific points you made in your speech, then conclude with a brief perspective on this Arabist/Islamist ideology.

Arabs and Muslims appeared on the world scene in 630 A.D., when the armies of Muhammad began their conquest of the Middle East. We should be very clear that this was a military conquest, not a missionary enterprise, and through the use of force, authorized by a declaration of a Jihad against infidels, Arabs/Muslims were able to forcibly convert and assimilate non-Arabs and non-Mulsims into their fold. Very few indigenous communities of the Middle East survived this -- primarily Assyrians, Jews, Armenians and Coptics (of Egypt).

Having conquered the Middle East, Arabs placed these communities under a Dhimmi (see the book Dhimmi, by Bat Ye'Or) system of governance, where the communities were allowed to rule themselves as religious minorities (Christians, Jews and Zoroastrian). These communities had to pay a tax (called a Jizzya in Arabic) that was, in effect, a penalty for being non-Muslim, and that was typically 80% in times of tolerance and up to 150% in times of oppression. This tax forced many of these communities to convert to Islam, as it was designed to do.

You state, "its architects designed buildings that defied gravity." I am not sure what you are referring to, but if you are referring to domes and arches, the fundamental architectural breakthrough of using a parabolic shape instead of a spherical shape for these structures was made by the Assyrians more than 1300 years earlier, as evidenced by their archaeological record.

You state, "its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of encryption." The fundamental basis of modern mathematics had been laid down not hundreds but thousands of years before by Assyrians and Babylonians, who already knew of the concept of zero, of the Pythagorean Theorem, and of many, many other developments expropriated by Arabs/Muslims (see History of Babylonian Mathematics, Neugebauer).

You state, "its doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease." The overwhelming majority of these doctors (99%) were Assyrians. In the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries Assyrians began a systematic translation of the Greek body of knowledge into Assyrian. At first they concentrated on the religious works but then quickly moved to science, philosophy and medicine. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Galen, and many others were translated into Assyrian, and from Assyrian into Arabic. It is these Arabic translations which the Moors brought with them into Spain, and which the Spaniards translated into Latin and spread throughout Europe, thus igniting the European Renaissance.

By the sixth century A.D., Assyrians had begun exporting back to Byzantia their own works on science, philosophy and medicine. In the field of medicine, the Bakhteesho Assyrian family produced nine generations of physicians, and founded the great medical school at Gundeshapur (Iran). Also in the area of medicine, (the Assyrian) Hunayn ibn-Ishaq's textbook on ophthalmology, written in 950 A.D., remained the authoritative source on the subject until 1800 A.D.

In the area of philosophy, the Assyrian philosopher Job of Edessa developed a physical theory of the universe, in the Assyrian language, that rivaled Aristotle's theory, and that sought to replace matter with forces (a theory that anticipated some ideas in quantum mechanics, such as the spontaneous creation and destruction of matter that occurs in the quantum vacuum).

One of the greatest Assyrian achievements of the fourth century was the founding of the first university in the world, the School of Nisibis, which had three departments, theology, philosophy and medicine, and which became a magnet and center of intellectual development in the Middle East. The statutes of the School of Nisibis, which have been preserved, later became the model upon which the first Italian university was based (see The Statutes of the School of Nisibis, by Arthur Voobus).

When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich heritage, a highly developed culture, and advanced learning institutions. It is this civilization that became the foundation of the Arab civilization.

You state, "Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and exploration." This is a bit melodramatic. In fact, the astronomers you refer to were not Arabs but Chaldeans and Babylonians (of present day south-Iraq), who for millennia were known as astronomers and astrologers, and who were forcibly Arabized and Islamized -- so rapidly that by 750 A.D. they had disappeared completely.

You state, "its writers created thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic. Its poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped in fear to think of such things." There is very little literature in the Arabic language that comes from this period you are referring to (the Koran is the only significant piece of literature), whereas the literary output of the Assyrians and Jews was vast. The third largest corpus of Christian writing, after Latin and Greek, is by the Assyrians in the Assyrian language (also called Syriac; see here.)

You state, "when other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others." This is a very important issue you raise, and it goes to the heart of the matter of what Arab/Islamic civilization represents. I reviewed a book titled How Greek Science Passed to the Arabs, in which the author lists the significant translators and interpreters of Greek science. Of the 22 scholars listed, 20 were Assyrians, 1 was Persian and 1 an Arab. I state at the end of my review: "The salient conclusion which can be drawn from O'Leary's book is that Assyrians played a significant role in the shaping of the Islamic world via the Greek corpus of knowledge. If this is so, one must then ask the question, what happened to the Christian communities which made them lose this great intellectual enterprise which they had established. One can ask this same question of the Arabs. Sadly, O'Leary's book does not answer this question, and we must look elsewhere for the answer." I did not answer this question I posed in the review because it was not the place to answer it, but the answer is very clear, the Christian Assyrian community was drained of its population through forced conversion to Islam (by the Jizzya), and once the community had dwindled below a critical threshold, it ceased producing the scholars that were the intellectual driving force of the Islamic civilization, and that is when the so called "Golden Age of Islam" came to an end (about 850 A.D.).

Islam the religion itself was significantly molded by Assyrians and Jews (see Nestorian Influence on Islam and Hagarism: the Making of the Islamic World).

Arab/Islamic civilization is not a progressive force, it is a regressive force; it does not give impetus, it retards. The great civilization you describe was not an Arab/Muslim accomplishment, it was an Assyrian accomplishment that Arabs expropriated and subsequently lost when they drained, through the forced conversion of Assyrians to Islam, the source of the intellectual vitality that propelled it. What other Arab/Muslim civilization has risen since? What other Arab/Muslim successes can we cite?

You state, "and perhaps we can learn a lesson from his [Suleiman] example: It was leadership based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full capabilities of a very diverse population that included Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions." In fact, the Ottomans were extremely oppressive to non-Muslims. For example, young Christian boys were forcefully taken from their families, usually at the age of 8-10, and inducted into the Janissaries, (yeniceri in Turkish) where they were Islamized and made to fight for the Ottoman state. What literary, artistic or scientific achievements of the Ottomans can we point to? We can, on the other hand, point to the genocide of 750,000 Assyrians, 1.5 million Armenians and 400,000 Greeks in World War One by the Kemalist "Young Turk" government. This is the true face of Islam.

Arabs/Muslims are engaged in an explicit campaign of destruction and expropriation of cultures and communities, identities and ideas. Wherever Arab/Muslim civilization encounters a non-Arab/Muslim one, it attempts to destroy it (as the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan were destroyed, as Persepolis was destroyed by the Ayotollah Khomeini). This is a pattern that has been recurring since the advent of Islam, 1400 years ago, and is amply substantiated by the historical record. If the "foreign" culture cannot be destroyed, then it is expropriated, and revisionist historians claim that it is and was Arab, as is the case of most of the Arab "accomplishments" you cited in your speech. For example, Arab history texts in the Middle East teach that Assyrians were Arabs, a fact that no reputable scholar would assert, and that no living Assyrian would accept. Assyrians first settled Nineveh, one of the major Assyrian cities, in 5000 B.C., which is 5630 years before Arabs came into that area. Even the word 'Arab' is an Assyrian word, meaning "Westerner" (the first written reference to Arabs was by the Assyrian King Sennacherib, 800 B.C., in which he tells of conquering the "ma'rabayeh" -- Westerners. See The Might That Was Assyria, by H. W. F. Saggs).

Even in America this Arabization policy continues. On October 27th a coalition of seven Assyrian and Maronite organizations sent an official letter to the Arab American Institute asking it to stop identifying Assyrians and Maronites as Arabs, which it had been deliberately doing.

There are minorities and nations struggling for survival in the Arab/Muslim ocean of the Middle East and Africa (Assyrians, Armenians, Coptics, Jews, southern Sudanese, Ethiopians, Nigerians...), and we must be very sensitive not to unwittingly and inadvertently support Islamic fascism and Arab Imperialism, with their attempts to wipe out all other cultures, religions and civilizations. It is incumbent upon each one of us to do our homework and research when making statements and speeches about these sensitive matters.

I hope you found this information enlightening. For more information, refer to the web links below. You may contact me at keepa@ninevehsoft.com for further questions.

Thank you for your consideration.

Peter BetBasoo

82 posted on 01/01/2007 10:56:22 PM PST by Fred Nerks (MEDIA + ENEMY = ENEMEDIA!)
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To: tomcorn

Brief History of Assyrians

Peter BetBasoo

http://www.aina.org/aol/peter/brief.htm


83 posted on 01/01/2007 11:00:44 PM PST by Fred Nerks (MEDIA + ENEMY = ENEMEDIA!)
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To: tomcorn

they discovered the United States of America, too...

Textbook on Arabs removes blunder


By George Archibald
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


An Indian tribe has forced distributors of an Arab studies guide for U.S. teachers to remove an inaccurate passage that says Muslim explorers preceded Christopher Columbus to North America and became Algonquin chiefs.
Peter DiGangi, director of Canada's Algonquin Nation Secretariat in Quebec, called claims in the book, the "Arab World Studies Notebook," "preposterous" and "outlandish," saying nothing in the tribe's written or oral history support them.
(none)
The 540-page book says the Muslim explorers married into the Algonquin tribe, resulting in 17th-century tribal chiefs named Abdul-Rahim and Abdallah Ibn Malik.
Mr. DiGangi said the guide's author and editor, Audrey Shabbas, and the Middle East Policy Council (MEPC), a Washington advocacy group that promoted the curriculum to school districts in 155 U.S. cities, have been unresponsive to his concerns since November.
But Ms. Shabbas said this week the passage was removed immediately from subsequent copies, and that she was "giving careful and thoughtful attention" on how to notify the 1,200 teachers who have been given copies of the book in the past five years.
"As the editor of the 'Notebook,' when I heard from Mr. DiGangi that a citation in the work was not borne out by either Native American written records or by oral traditions, I was grateful that the statement could so easily be removed," she said.
She did not explain how the false information got into the curriculum...

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040416-120208-4455r.htm


84 posted on 01/01/2007 11:58:15 PM PST by Fred Nerks (MEDIA + ENEMY = ENEMEDIA!)
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