[freedomfiter2]

Laws and punishment have utility only if people can control their will.


Wrong. Punishment changes the perspective. A selfish individual may still want to steal his neighbors car, but the likelyhood and severity of punishment makes it not worth it to him. He still is acting out the desires of his heart.

[Cheburashka]

Wrong. Punishment changes the perspective. A selfish individual may still want to steal his neighbors car, but the likelyhood and severity of punishment makes it not worth it to him. He still is acting out the desires of his heart.
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You are talking about how and why he controls his will.

If he's a meat puppet he can't control his will, no matter what the threatened punishment is. Therefore punishment is useless.

You can't be selfish or generous if you're a meat puppet. You do everything you do the way you do it because you're a meat puppet. You have no free will.

[Elsie]

Punishment changes the perspective.

Gee.... ya think??

NIV Proverbs 10:13
Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks judgment.

NIV Proverbs 13:24
He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.

NIV Proverbs 22:15
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.

NIV Proverbs 23:13-14
13. Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
14. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

NIV Proverbs 29:15
The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.