When will world confront the undead of Croatia?

Baltimore Sun ^ | January 16, 2007 | Julia Gorin

[Bokababe]

"The main difference between the two was that communism was an equal opportunity murderer and Nazism targeted specific ethnic groups for extermination. Both ideologies were killers, just with different styles."

"You write on this topic (Nazis vs communism, Marxism) as if the American Marxist educators have done their job very well; with you. "

Apparently, not good enough -- I am on David Horowitz' mailing list!

When the Cold War was going on, most Americans referred to communist Yugoslavia as "the most Western and not really communist" of the communist countries. And a dear friend of mine said it best, "It's like Dante's rings of Hell. Yugoslavia may be in the highest ring of Hell at the moment, but they are still none the less in Hell!"

My point was not to defend communism, but rather not to allow "fighting communism" to be used as an excuse for an alliance with this kind of bloodthirsty fascism during WWII. There were more than two choices.

I did overstate the case in saying "communism is dead", but to the extent that it is still a threat, it is a rather universal threat to our freedoms, not a specific threat of extermination to one or two ethnic or religious groups. A "bunch of communists" are unlikely to mug you after a soccer game just because you are wearing a cross or a Star Of David -- that's not true with neo-Nazis. If you are not of those ethnic or religious groups that is threatened, then you can afford to look at it as "theoretically equal", and not personal. If you are of one of those ethnic or religious groups, then nazism is the greater threat because it doesn't take substantial numbers of them to bully you.

Further, I agree that communism and nazism are two sides of the same coin. In WWII Yugoslavia. according to Tito's righthand-man, turned-dissident, Milovan Djilas, the communication lines between Nazi Germany and Tito's communists were open until the final days of the War. Tito was not worried about more German troops arriving in Yugoslavia, his big fear was an British landing. In fact, Tito was never the "anti-fascist hero" he was made out to be, by British authors post-war.

The Euro socialists are a nightmare, and they are going to strangle themselves with their ideology. Some here seem to have the idea that it is no skin off our nose, as long as it doesn't happen in the US. I disagree, we are not an economic and social island -- their ideology has made it here already and it is spreading fast. But that is an entirely different argument that shouldn't detract from the original post.

[kronos77]

Yes, but I must tell you that as I live in Serbia, hungarians (catholics) are one of most respected nations by Serbs.
You see, our hollidays starts with catholic Christmass (as we call it) on Dec. 25th and New Year, followed by Serb Christmas (Ortodox) on Jan. 7th and ending with Serb New Year on Jan 13th.

You can find Hungarian and Croate catholics in administration, judiciar system, and Hungarians are one of most respected oficers in Serbian Army where they are holding ranks up to Army general (Kosta Nagy, 1980es) and posts like chief of army intelligence (gen. Gezo Farkas 1990es).

Second,

Serbs mostley forget that catholic Church is very diverse, and not monolitic and homogenic, as they belive.

I hold that Croates in WWII would commit those massacres even if Croates were Budhists or Shinto.

Simpley, Croate priesthood was consisted of Croates, and therefore they were under influence of local nazis.
And I repeat, out of 4 Catholic nations in Former Yugoslavia plus Italian and German occupiers, only one, Croates commited genocide.
So blame is to be found in Croate nazi-ideoligy, not Catholicism. My grandfather was Catholic, an he went to partisans to fight Germans.

Now, also, Vatican is not just a priesthood, it is also a statehood, politics, and we can argue about guilt of Vatican (As state) and Croatia (As state) but never about Catholics

[Bokababe]

" It is not the point of view of Bokababe or elenil21 and others who have a specific anti-Catholic agenda and would never mention or admit to, as per your example, the actions of the Bulgarian Orthodox."

Sorry, I am too smart to jump into the little "box of argument" you seek to put me into as an "anti Roman Catholic". I know that the more factual evidence of Roman Catholic clerical complicity in the WWII Croat genocide I offer here, then the more "anti-Catholic" you will make me out to be -- and the less evidence I show, the more you could label me as "just a raving anti-Catholic with no evidence". Sorry, not going to play that game with you.

Saints and sinners are neither exclusively Roman Catholic nor Orthodox. And if the discussion was about Bulgaria, then the Bulgarian Orthodox would be a subject for discussion -- but it's not. This subject is and was about Croatia and Croatia's past, not Bulgaria. And part of Croatia's past was that there was a terrible WWII "marriage of church and state" which took the lives of hundreds of thousands of people who did not belong to that church -- it's and undeniable fact this "church" was Roman Catholic, and that "state" was Croatia. Nothing more, nothing less. In that place and time, it happened and it happened on a massive scale and both the church and state were up to their armpits in blood.

Sadly, even other Roman Catholics like you who can say that "no person of conscience could defend Ante Pavelic" are minimizing the damage in order to defend and protect your Church. You aren't alone, many others who may never have done such a thing themselves, have done the same. Pavelic and Artukovic were smuggled out of the countries and hid out in seperate monasteries across Europe. Draganovic was at the Vatican. Can you really believe that those who hid them and protected them didn't know what they did? They did, but they were also protecting and defending their Church from the shame of it all.

My agenda is not "anti-Catholic". I wish to God that this bloodbath had never happened, and that I didn't know what I do. At the same time I believe it is a bigger sin to deny that those murdered ever lived or deny that they died the way that they did -- because if we do, we dishonor their memory and we have learned nothing, resolved nothing, have no assurances that it will never happen again. This continual denial is what creates the next generation of "Pavelic's and Artukovic's" who will do it because they think that they can justify it and get away with it -- who can and will use their church as both their mantle and their protection from prosecution, because they have unwitting dupes who will again attempt to hide it in order to protect the Church.

[Bokababe]

with no other possible reason to do so

"Being a Communist sympathizer is a pretty good reason. They did all the time in those days, at the drop of a hat."

That's insane & you know it. This man was put on a blacklist of those who were never allowed back into communist Yugoslavia and the only people that ever got put on that balcklist were ANTI-COMMUNISTS -- and not "communist sympathizers"!

[wideawake]

This man was put on a blacklist of those who were never allowed back into communist Yugoslavia and the only people that ever got put on that balcklist were ANTI-COMMUNISTS

That statement shows how little you know about the former Republic of Yugoslavia and its Communist party.

In the beginning, all Communists were quite welcome as long as they fought the Nazis. But soon after the fighting, as Tito's ideology began to diverge in certain ways from Stalin's ideology, plenty of dyed-in-the-wool Communists were blacklisted as well for belonging to a differing school from the emerging Titoist orthodoxy.

Totskyites were blacklisted from the Communist Party of The Soviet Union - that doesn't mean that Trotskyites were anti-communists by a long shot.

[joan]

See how in your link, one of the photos shows dead Serbs being exhumed in Sarajevo, Bosnia freshly at the end of the war. They were killed 1941-1945, and they aren't skeletized.

There was mass slaughters of Bosnian Serbs in WWII (not to mention WWI), but there was comparatively little effort to find and exhume victims after those wars. I feel certain that many of the mass graves they find in Bosnia these past several years (80% of them fully skeletized) and pronounce, without identification as being Muslim, are in fact Serbs killed decades ago.

Hundreds of thousands of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia were massacred in their own towns and villages. This picture shows the exhumation of victims in Sarajevo in April 1945 with relatives present for identification. (Photo courtesy of Marko Rucnov)

[Bokababe]

"That statement shows how little you know about the former Republic of Yugoslavia and its Communist party."

What you are saying about this man is just bull. I've known him all my life, he's no communist, he fought the communists and the Nazis, and he sacrificed virtually everything to do it -- his home, his country, everything -- period.

Drag your red herrings elsewhere.

[Wuli]

"I did overstate the case in saying "communism is dead", but to the extent that it is still a threat, it is a rather universal threat to our freedoms, not a specific threat of extermination to one or two ethnic or religious groups. A "bunch of communists" are unlikely to mug you after a soccer game just because you are wearing a cross or a Star Of David -- that's not true with neo-Nazis. If you are not of those ethnic or religious groups that is threatened, then you can afford to look at it as "theoretically equal", and not personal. If you are of one of those ethnic or religious groups, then nazism is the greater threat because it doesn't take substantial numbers of them to bully you."

Your whole idea is overstated and in absolute reverse of what is and is not more of a danger to us all, now.

The neo-nazis are no more a threat to our societies than the common mugger, because that is their behavior, it is apparent to everyone, it is open, and they are arrested for it - usually. But the Marxist inspired western socialists and "liberals" mug as all, everyday WITH THE LAW, with the big-brother and nanny states they are constructing.

France bans the wearing of any religious-identified dress or jewlery by school children - making all jewish boys with Yamulkas and all christian children wearing crosses mugged - by the law. We're being mugged by Marxists

A young Christian girl in England was told by authorities that she could not take her designated school bus any longer, unless she quit wearing her cross. We're being mugged by Marxists

In Switzerland it is a crime to commit any number of statements in public that can be construed as blasphamy to Muslims. We're being mugged by Marxists.

Nancy Pelosi's gang of political thugs is pushing new legislation to (1)require all churches to register as lobbysists and level fines against any who make any statement on public policy and are not "registered"; and (2)require anyone who gets a single readership of 500 people or more for a posting they place on a blog or any public-internet forumn, to also have to register as "lobbyists" and be subject to the campaign finance reform laws, including adhereing to the same supposed restrictions on 527 organizations in terms of when and when not you can say something about the candidates in an election. We're being mugged by the Marxists, in our own congress.

Its amazing for someone on Horowitz's mailing list to be so blind to the real muggers, all across the west.

[Diocletian]

No I'm not. I'm speaking for the truth...free of Serb nationalist lies and free of Tito's communist lies. And especially free of propagandists who use these lies 60 years later to smear Croatia.

[Diocletian]

No, they unfurled a symbol of Communist oppression. How would you feel if Germans unfurled a Nazi flag?

[Diocletian]

Sorry, your personal comments don't count for anything. Can't be proven.

[Diocletian]

Your quote is factually wrong and disproved by statistical studies from both Serbian and Croatian sources.

[joan]

Yeah a few token communist Serbs who were paid to work against their own people.

[Diocletian]

No. Scientists. It was the communists along with the Serb royalists who falsified the numbers of dead. Neither group has been able to prove their claims using demographic analysis. Even the BBC has revised their numbers to below 100,000 to reflect this. Took them only 5 decades to do so.

[joan]

The BBC is anti-Serb, one must remember how they propagandized against the Serb Chetniks and gave their full support to Tito, a Croat-Slovene, and gave him credit for Chetnik successful attacks against the Germans.

The German observers during the war were the ones who gave the numbers of around 700,000 Serbs killed by Croats.

The Germans are an organized people who like to get the facts down correctly.

Tito prevented the research and digging up of dead Serbs. I think investigators were given 5 days to complete their digging around Jasenovac. That's all.

I know that in these days when Croats are building new roads, schools, etc. they find bodies with their hands tied with wires, but Croats quickly dismiss these as Germans who were killed during the war.

Basically Croatia is off the hook when it comes to thorough and lasting research of the dead, and no scientific identification or scrutiny is done on the bodies they find from WWII era.

[Bokababe]

My take on the difference between you and me, Wuli, is that you think that the Euro socialists, neo-Nazis, radical Muslims and Pelosi Liberals today are all different "groups" each presenting different threat levels to our freedoms, and I think that they are actually the same group wearing different masks.

All of them are working toward a "one-world government", all of them believe in "social engineering", all of them think that Christianity and Judaism are evil and seek its demise, all of them are dedicated to turning us into mindless and freedomless robots. The only real differences between any of them is tactics -- and sometimes those tactics seem so well choreographed to increase each other's power (and deny us ours) that it is hard not to wonder whether they planned it that way.

It's as though John Lennon's song, "Imagine" from the West, has met radical Islam in the East, and found common ground. And God help us all!

[Wuli]

No Bokababe; you have it backwards. You fail to see that they are all united in a way that the "neo nazis" are not and the real difference between you and me is that you think that all of them are less of a threat than some Neo Nazi muggers. I don't.

[Diocletian]

The BBC is anti-Serb, one must remember how they propagandized against the Serb Chetniks and gave their full support to Tito, a Croat-Slovene, and gave him credit for Chetnik successful attacks against the Germans.

The BBC held up the Royalists and were very antiCroat.

The German observers during the war were the ones who gave the numbers of around 700,000 Serbs killed by Croats.

Incorrect. You're thinking of the statement by Glaise von Horstenau who said 300,000. Even this figure has been proven to be very wrong.

The Germans are an organized people who like to get the facts down correctly.

Feel free to post the study...lmao. Here's a hint: there was no study done by the Germans, much less a census taken during those anarchic war years.

Tito prevented the research and digging up of dead Serbs. I think investigators were given 5 days to complete their digging around Jasenovac. That's all.

Yet Tito inflated the number of war dead by 45%, as admitted by the Serb Djilas and later proven by scientists.

I know that in these days when Croats are building new roads, schools, etc. they find bodies with their hands tied with wires, but Croats quickly dismiss these as Germans who were killed during the war.

Personal stories of yours count for nothing.

Basically Croatia is off the hook when it comes to thorough and lasting research of the dead, and no scientific identification or scrutiny is done on the bodies they find from WWII era.

The scientific studies done by both Serbs and Croats have shown that the number of dead Serbs was inflated by both Serb royalists and the Communists. It was impossible for the number to be so ridiculously high in light of the census figures before WW2 and immediately after. Unless, of course, the Serbs were having 12 babies per family during 1941-1945 :)

[Bokababe]

"free of Serb nationalist lies and free of Tito's communist lies."

You are funny, Diocletian!

If you were being accurate instead of racist, you'd have said that something might be "Free of Serb Nationalist and Croat/Slovene communist lies" or even simply "nationalist or communist lies", but you just can't stand to admit to yourself that Tito was a Croat/Slovene and not a Serb!

Today's Croats should kiss Tito's feet. He gave Dalmatia and the Krajina to Croatia -- and without Dalmatia you'd have no "tourist industry". Without Dalmatians going to university in Zagreb, they would still be referring to themselves as "Dalmatians" and not seeing themselves as "Croatians". Without Dubrovnik, no one else in the world would have given a damn about "Croatia's beautiful buildings" as a UNESCO World Heritage site. Without Tito, you'd have still been ruled by the Serb Karadjordjevici, instead of by a Croat/Slovene for the last 50 years.Tito did a lot for Croats and Croatia>

All the Tito ever did for Serbs was steal their country, steal their land & give it to their enemies, and then leave them holding the bag for all of problems that he left behind.

[Diocletian]

I admit that Tito was a Croat/Serb, but those in charge of inflating the numbers of war dead were Serb.

Tito didn't give "Krajina" to Croatia. The "Vojna Krajina" was dismantled in 1881 and reincorporated into Croatia. Dalmatia has always been Croatian....all of Croatia's Kings were from Dalmatia and all the capitals during Croatia's Kingdom were in Dalmatia.

I suggest you relearn history.

All the Tito ever did for Serbs was steal their country, steal their land & give it to their enemies, and then leave them holding the bag for all of problems that he left behind.

That's funny, considering that he took Eastern Srijem and gave it to Serbia...that he let Serbs run the SR Croatia, KOS, UDBA, media, etc.