Posted on 01/23/2007 8:54:27 AM PST by thackney
Big hurdles include the cost: millions per car
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WASHINGTON - Ford Motor Co. is joining the list of automakers working on a plug-in hybrid — with a twist. It combines the convenience of plugging in your car with a zero-emissions hydrogen fuel cell.
Ford today is to display what it calls the world's first drivable fuel cell hybrid electric vehicle with plug-in capability. Called the Flexible Series Hybrid Edge, it represents the latest offering from automakers hoping to stake a claim to the next generation of highly efficient alternative automobiles.
Gerhard Schmidt, Ford's vice president of research and advanced engineering, said the vehicle, based on the Ford Edge crossover platform, gives the company "the ultimate in flexibility in researching advanced propulsion technology."
"We could take the fuel cell power system out and replace it with a downsized diesel, gasoline engine or any other powertrain connected to a small electric generator to make electricity like the fuel cell does now," Schmidt said.
Ford was showing the plug-in fuel cell at the Washington Auto Show, where lawmakers and government officials were viewing a number of advanced vehicle technologies. The show opens for media previews on the eve of President Bush's State of the Union address, which is expected to include energy proposals of concern to the auto industry.
Several automakers have been working on similar technologies. General Motors Corp. will display the Chevrolet Volt, a plug-in electric car recently unfurled in Detroit with a range of 40 miles on the battery and more than 600 miles with a gas engine.
DaimlerChrysler has been pursuing plug-in hybrids and said Friday it would expand its test fleet in the U.S. to more than 20 Dodge Sprinter vans. The company's chairman, Dieter Zetsche, and Chrysler Group Chief Executive Tom LaSorda were expected to discuss clean diesel technology at the auto show on Tuesday.
Volkswagen will be showing the Golf GT TSI for the first time in the United States. The vehicle's supercharged gasoline engine has 170 horsepower while garnering 40 miles per gallon in the city and 48 mpg on the highway. VW estimates the vehicle gets 638 miles on one tank of fuel.
Ford's plug-in hybrid Edge operates in battery only mode for the first 25 miles, moving at speeds of up to 85 miles per hour. When the battery is depleted to 40 percent, it shifts to the fuel-cell mode, which recharges the battery for 200 more miles of range.
The 336-volt lithium ion battery pack can be fully charged overnight — in about eight hours — with either a 110 or 220 volt outlet, and the engine produces gas mileage of about 41 miles per gallon. Drivers who travel fewer than 50 miles per day would get more than 80 miles per gallon, Ford said.
The combined plug-in-hydrogen vehicle offers a new way to address some of the challenges of hydrogen fuel cells. The pollution-free technology could provide a sustainable energy source through the mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, but it faces a number of hurdles with its size, weight, cost and lack of a fueling infrastructure.
Ford reduced the fuel cell's size, weight and cost by half and said its approach would double the lifespan of the fuel cell's stack.
Mujeeb Ijaz, Ford's manager for fuel cell vehicle engineering, said the changes were "a great step to commercializing" the vehicle.
Ford has not set a date when it would be available.
The automaker said the vehicles cost millions of dollars each and commercialization remains hindered by a lack of a hydrogen infrastructure and the cost of lithium-ion batteries.
How come the editor of your magazine is NOT getting 200 mpg in his Prius? Please explain how the etheric analyzer works, also. Thank you.
"Electrifying Times editor Bruce Meland and Dave Farnsworth, electronics Inventor drove to St Augustine from Bend Oregon in their 05 Prius fully loaded with 500 lbs of electronic gear. They did the 3200 mile trip in 2 1/2 days and $200 dollars of gas. They are there to test an etheric analyzer that can tap into many dimensions where ghosts and etheric spirits reside."
Feasts On Rice Dear
there is no law that says 200 mpg's is not attainable. You are letting your skeptical darkside block what is obvious...very high mileage devices have been invented. There is a company that is working and spending alot of money perfecting a system which vaporizes the fuel via the exhaust manifold. I believe they are going for well over 100 mpg's. I can find and send you the link if you want.
Not only that, but there are fuel cells out there that use gasoline or natural gas. Some strip the hydrogen with a reformer, which adds cost, others don't. NASA has led the development of many of the latter type (solid oxide - see, not all of NASA is a waste of money).
That solves the infrastructure problem right there.
But I agree - infrastructure will appear rapidly IF the vehicles are market-ready, especially if the gov't helps make it a priority.
I'm not as optimistic that it will be just 5 years, but I'd say in about 15 we might see some niche applications....
--There is a company that is working and spending alot of money perfecting a system which vaporizes the fuel via the exhaust manifold.--
How much did YOU invest?
--there is no law that says 200 mpg's is not attainable. --
200 mpg is attainable. Just not on your old Fury by replacing the carburetor.
absolutely true. But the question may not be so much a question of efficiency, but of flexibility. You can produce hydrogen with algae. You can split it using electricity from any of a variety of sources (coal, gas, oil, nuclear, solar, hydro, wind). You can also strip it off hydrocarbons.
I do not believe that hydrogen is necessarily the answer. But if you can get hydrogen power to be reasonably cost-competitive, you remove dependence upon a single source of energy (oil).
Whether or not hydrogen has significant advantages to pure electric is still questionable, in my opinion....
If engineers wrote advertising copy there would different kinds of howlers.
Please do... from your description it sounds just like an everyday EGR system that you find on every vehicle made. I remain VERY, VERY skeptical....
Does your statement apply to a hydrogen fuel cell?
If so count me as a doubter of the laws of physics.
If you use electrolysis to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen in the first place, you are not going to get more energy putting it back together than you spent taking it apart, storing and transporting it. Plus the heat of the equation is not recovered in fuel cells.
If this were not so, you could build a perpetual motion machine. I assume you don't believe in those.
I don't understand the skepticism when the facts are there about what Charles Pogue did. A little research will show you that. I have to search for that company that's perfecting a vapor system using the exhaust manifold.
Because you are ignoring basic science.
The internal combustion engine provides power by the expansion of the intake mixture to the exhaust mixture. This is accomplished by primarily 3 methods.
1) The breaking down of complex dense molecules into less dense molecules.
2) The vaporization of relatively dense liquid fuel into less dense vapor.
3) The expansion of gases due to heat: 
#1 is the same regardless of starting with a vapor or liquid droplets.
#2 is eliminated from from your claim, producing less work.
#3 is unchanged. It is still the same chemical reaction regardless whether you start from a vapor or a liquid. It may goes faster, but that does not produce more energy and the internal combustion engine works more efficiently with a steady fast burn over and explosion.
If you first heat the intake mixture, then the delta T of #3 has a lower ratio to the exhaust, providing less expansion and consequently less work.
Which is the reason Drag Racers used to cool their fuel by running the line through ice water prior the carburetor. Also, many of the drag racing records get set in winter because of the cooler temps of the intake air, resulting in a higher ratio of expansion.
thanks for the info...I think you are missing something though. When the gas is made into a fine vapor via much heat you are getting an expansion of it and thereby more volume. That's where the added mpg's are coming about. Is that not true? I found a story of a man on one of the mpg's site whose fuel pump was malfunctioning and overheating, causing the fuel to heat up. He was getting about 45 mpg's when he was normally getting about 23. If you really look into it, heat vaporization does work...but the oil companies have made it difficult by reformulating the gas to a very high vapor temperature.
Changing from liquid to gas is item #2. If you use a theoretical carburetor or preheat to change it before the combustion chamber as you suggest, you do not get to capture that change to do the work of moving the piston. It needs to enter the combustion chamber as a liquid. The smaller the droplets are, the more rapid the reaction.
I found a story of a man on one of the mpg's site whose fuel pump was malfunctioning and overheating, causing the fuel to heat up. He was getting about 45 mpg's when he was normally getting about 23.
I've read a lot of stories about Bigfoot, UFO's and Elvis working at a convenience store. Repeating a fabrication does not make it true, and it does not change the laws of chemistry and physics.
This is a typical automobile.
The only part you suggest is being changed is 62.4%. That is a huge loss, I agree. But your examples are doing nothing to reduce friction or capture the waste heat given off the engine, radiator and exhaust. It is not magic, but a chemical equation and basic physics.
but the oil companies have made it difficult by reformulating the gas to a very high vapor temperature
Raising vapor pressure means more vapor is produced. Vapor pressure is a measure of the amount of gas that would natural occur as a liquid is put into a closed container. If a what you claim is true, it would produce more, not less, vapor.
Vapor pressures are regulated by the EPA. They force the fuel to be reduced vapor pressure.
I really don't know where you are getting some of your ideas...it's a well known fact that the more vaporized the fuel is, the better it will burn. Hence fuel injection mixing with the air to vaporize partially. You don't want liquid fuel for optimum efficiency. And you misunderstood my point about the oil companies reformulating the gas so it would take alot more heat to vaporize it thereby making it very difficult for the backyard mechanic to make his or her own vaporizer.
Just out of curiousity...do you work for an oil company? Your lack of knowledge is a little perplexing to me for someone who says to read the science. Not meaning to put you down but you need to look a little more objectively at the subject.
That would be from a degree in engineering and an understanding of basic chemistry and physics.
it's a well known fact that the more vaporized the fuel is, the better it will burn
Faster, yes. What does "better" mean? But if you burn vapor in the combustion chamber you get the changing of items #1 and #3 above without capturing #2.
You don't want liquid fuel for optimum efficiency.
In an internal combustion engine, yes you do for the reasons listed above.
And you misunderstood my point about the oil companies reformulating the gas so it would take alot more heat to vaporize it
No, you don't understand what the term vapor pressure means.
Just out of curiousity...do you work for an oil company?
No I don't, but I often work in that industry.
Your lack of knowledge is a little perplexing to me
The lack is on your part. You ignore what actual happens in the engine. Go back and actually read what I wrote. The parts you don't understand go look up in an actual science publication instead of a conspiracy theorist web site.
I thought you might want a laugh this morning.
I understand you have alot of knowledge about engineering but you have been taught wrong on the vapor point. Everything I have researched from a wide variety of sources says that you want the fuel to be vaporized to get the most power and mpg's. And the evidence is there for anyone to see that with varous inventions that have proved it which for some strange reason you deny. O well, hope you will open your mind a bit. And again, my application of at least partial vaporization with my old plymouth proved it as well with over 100% mpg improvement with excellent performance. I'm not making that up and have no reason to...I actually did it using an inventors plans that were sold to the public.
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