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The Enemy At Home (Dinesh DíSouza argues that the cultural Left is responsible for 9/11)
FrontPageMagazine.com ^ | January 23, 2007 | Jamie Glazov

Posted on 01/23/2007 5:17:59 PM PST by Free ThinkerNY

The Enemy At Home (Dinesh D’Souza argues that the cultural Left is responsible for 9/11)

By Jamie Glazov

FrontPageMagazine.com | January 23, 2007

Frontpage Interview’s guest today is Dinesh D’Souza, the Rishwain Research Scholar at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. He is the author of several bestselling books, including Illiberal Education, The Virtue of Prosperity, and What's So Great About America. He is the author of the new book The Enemy At Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11.

FP: Dinesh D’Souza, welcome to Frontpage Interview.

D’Souza: Thank you.

FP: I’d like to announce to our readers right up front that Mr. D’Souza and I disagree with each other on various aspects of his argument in his new book. And the two of us have had an exchange here at Frontpage about our disagreements. However, out of courtesy to Mr. D’Souza, in this first part of our interview we will allow him to express his thesis without any rebuttal from my end. In this way, Mr. D'Souza can crystallize his main points without us getting into a point-counterpoint exchange which may prevent his main thesis from being clearly synthesized. Then, in tomorrow’s issue, we will publish the debate between us.

So let’s begin. Mr. D’Souza, what inspired you to write this book?

D’Souza: While I was researching my previous book What’s So Great About America I realized that there was a big debate about Islamic radicalism going on in this country, but it bore little or no resemblance to what Muslims were saying in their own countries. A good example of this is Sayyid Qutb, the Egyptian writer who has been called “the brains behind Bin Laden.” Here in this country we hear that the Islamic radicals are against science and capitalism and democracy. “They hate us for our freedom.” Qutb was for science and capitalism. He supported democracy. Yes, he wanted an Islamic state under sharia. His point was that sharia should reflect the religious and moral sentiments of the Muslim people. His anti-Americanism was based on what he saw as the paganism and immorality of American culture. He didn’t hate us for our freedom, he hated us for how we have used our freedom.

FP: One of the points you stress is that the war on terror is not a “war of competing fundamentalisms” between Islamic fundamentalism and Christian fundamentalism. Tell us why you find it important to make this point.

D’Souza: If this was a war of competing fundamentalisms, then clearly the solution is secularism. And this is what many people, mostly on the left but some on the right, are recommending today. “Bring on the Islamic Reformation.” These people think that an Islamic Reformation would go down the same path as the Protestant Reformation, toward secularism. But Islam is in the middle of a Reformation. The only problem is that during such a time there is a return to origins, to the way the faith started. Islam began with a unification of church and state, an infusion of Islam into all aspects of the society. And this is what many Muslims want, not just “fundamentalists” but also traditional Muslims.

So when religious Muslims look at America, what they object to is not Christian fundamentalism but what they see as an official stance of atheism. Bin Laden calls America the fountainhead of global paganism, and many Muslims agree. We don’t think of separation of church and state as atheism, but Islam is a religion of law rather than creed. Islam in this respect is like ancient Judaism. So for Muslims, the idea of expelling God out of the public sphere of society is atheism. In fighting America the radical Muslims believe they are protecting not just Islam but monotheism against the greatest embodiment and promoters of atheism in the world, which is us.

FP: You argue that liberal popular culture has created a blowback of resistance from traditional cultures, especially Islamic culture. Kindly explain.

D’Souza: Here in America we know that there is a distinction between the values of American popular culture and the values by which Americans live. But for a Muslim on the streets of Cairo or Islamabad, American popular culture reflects what America is all about. Our popular culture is our country’s face to the world. There is an attractive aspect to this culture, its vitality and individuality. But there is also a lot in this culture that is excessive and trivial and indecent and shameful. I’m not just talking about rap music and Jerry Springer, but also about so-called high culture. Eve Ensler is very proud that her “Vagina Monologues” has played worldwide, including in many Muslim countries. She is especially proud of sequences in which people stand up and discuss their vaginas. Now you have to remember that outside of Europe andAmerica, most of the cultures of the world are quite traditional. They are socially quite conservative. Islamic culture is especially conservative in valuing female modesty and childhood innocence. So things that we may consider edgy or “pushing the envelope” here in America are, in the Muslim world, considered shocking evidence of American moral degeneracy. The radical Muslims say it’s one thing for Americans to have these perversions in their own society, but now they are forcing it upon the rest of the world. So the call to jihad is issued defensively: to protect Islamic society from values that will undermine the religion and destroy the family and corrupt the children.

FP: If Islam rejects separation of church and state, how can Muslim countries become democratic?

D’Souza: Separation of church and state is an American invention. Even the Europeans don’t have it. In England you have the Anglican church which is an official establishment. Even European countries which are more secular than the United States often give money to religious schools and so on. So religious establishment is consistent with religious toleration. And religious toleration is an idea that has long been upheld in Islam. When Catholic Spain gave the Jews three choices—leave the country, convert to Christianity, or be killed—Jews and other religious minorities were living peacefully and practicing their religion in Muslim empires, from the Mughal empire in India to the Abbasid empire and later the Ottoman empire based in Turkey. True, the Islamic empires discriminated against other religions, but they put up with them and gave them considerable control over their own communities. The radical Muslims are trying to get rid of this tradition of religious toleration, but the traditional Muslims still abide by it. Here is something within the Muslim tradition that can provide a foundation for Muslim democracy.

FP: You cite Abu Ghraib as an example of the depravity of “liberal family values.” Why exactly do you say this?

D’Souza: For Muslims, torture was not the big story at Abu Ghraib. Historian Bernard Lewis has said that compared to prisons anywhere in the Muslim world, Abu Ghraib was like Disneyland. Many of the infamous pictures depicting captives blindfolded, or with wires all around them—that was simulated torture, not real torture. What really scandalized the Muslim world was the pictures of sexual depravity. Now even some conservatives minimized this at the time, I guess in the hope that it would make the scandal go away. “It was just a fraternity prank,” and so on. But for traditional societies where honor is the highest social value, there is nothing amusing about taking a religious man and putting a woman’s underwear on his head. There is no humor in stripping him naked and forcing him to masturbate while you take photos. For many Muslims Abu Ghraib was an illustration of what perverts Americans have become, and how lightly we tread on other people’s sacred beliefs. We think that a little sexual tomfoolery is nothing compared to cutting of a man’s head and broadcasting the assassination on the Internet. But for many Muslims, it’s bad to kill a man but it’s worse to strip away his honor. This is why some traditional Muslims are reluctant to condemn their radical counterparts. They don’t want to be seen as taking the side of Western depravity, a depravity that my book shows to be the product of contemporary liberalism.

FP: You challenge the idea that radical Muslims are against modern science, democracy and capitalism. How come?

D’Souza: Because they’re not. Read the works of the leading thinkers of Islamic radicalism, like Qutb and Sharia’ti and Mawdudi. They are all champions of modern science. They like capitalism. Now democracy is a trickier issue. Here the radical Muslims are divided. Some, like Qutb, support democracy while others say we cannot allow the will of the people to substitute for the will of God. But in the last decade and a half most of the leading organizations of radical Islam have become enthusiastic proponents of democracy. Why? Not because they have been reading The Federalist Papers. The reason they support democracy is that they have discovered that this is an excellent way to come to power. Look at the success of the Islamic Salvation Front in Algeria in the 1990s. Or the success of Hamas. Or of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Egyptian parliamentary election.

FP: You say that liberal foreign policy sowed the seeds of 9/11. How?

D’Souza: First the liberals advising Jimmy Carter helped radical Islam to capture its first major state. Since the 1920s the radical Muslims were on the margins of society. But in 1979 they came to power in Iran. How did this happen? Well, our friend Carter was elected in 1976 on a human rights platform. The liberals went to Carter and said, “You can’t support the Shah of Iran because he is a dictator. He has a secret police. He violates human rights.” And so Carter began to pull the Persian rug out from under America’s ally. As resistance to the Shah mounted, Carter urged the Shah not to resist it but to abdicate, which he did. And the result was Khomeini. In trying to get rid of the bad guy, liberal foreign policy brought us the worse guy. Khomeini invented the idea that America is the Great Satan. He called for martyrdom in the cause of fighting America. Without Khomeini, we would never have had Bin Laden. Khomeini paved the way for 9/11. I’m not even going to get into Clinton’s role in emboldening Bin Laden to strike when he did. I’ll leave that for people to read in my book.

FP: You say the left wants us to lose in Iraq. But why? Aren’t the Islamic radicals a threat to women’s rights and gay rights?

D’Souza: It’s quite clear that the left wants us to lose the war on terror. Some people like Michael Moore and Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn are outspoken in saying this. But even people who don’t say it clearly wish it. If you think the left wants us to win, then its actions become baffling and mysterious. You have to labor hard to figure out why they speak and act like they do. On the other hand if you assume the left wants us to lose, then all its rhetoric and actions make complete sense. But why? Because the left is a bit scared of Bin Laden but it is very scared of Bush. The left doesn’t like Bin Laden but it absolutely hates Bush. And while Bin Laden and his allies are the “far enemy,” Bush and the conservatives are the “near enemy.” As the left sees it, Bin Laden threatens sharia in Baghdad, but Bush threatens sharia in Boston. Imagine one or two more conservative court appointments and the whole liberal agenda of the past half-century is jeopardized. So the left is quite willing to ally with the lesser evil, the Islamic radicals, in order to defeat the greater evil, Bush and the right.

FP: We have a difficult time with the word “treason” now. Is treason the problem?

D’Souza: No, because the left loves America. Yes, I know David Horowitz is going to do a double-take on that, but it’s true. I’ll say it again: Michael Moore loves America. The only thing is that he loves a different American that we do. What he loves is liberal America, the America of labor revolts and bra-burning and the Stonewall riots and Roe v. Wade. What he hates is traditional or conservative America. Jeanine Garofalo said that she hates it when people wave the American flag but she gets teary-eyed when they burn the American flag. That’s because she identifies the flag with traditional American values. So she’s not anti-American: her patriotism is based on an allegiance to liberal American values.

FP: How important is the Iraq war? Can we win?

D’Souza: I am not sure how we are doing in Iraq. It’s hard to say because the media accounts are so untrustworthy. It’s important we win because we don’t want radical Islam getting its hands on a second major state. They already have Iran, and that’s a big enough problem. If Iraq falls, you can be sure that Egypt and Saudi Arabia will be targeted next. This is not Vietnam, which was peripheral to our vital interests. Our whole way of life, not to mention our security, depends at least for the foreseeable future, on a stable Middle East. So the stakes in Iraq are very high, and the Democratic Leadership that is trying to force a precipitous withdrawal is playing with fire.

FP: You say America can fight a better war on terror by making allies with traditional Muslims. What do you mean?

D’Souza: Our current strategy is based on trying to find secular liberals in the Muslim world, people who believe in women’s rights and separation of church and state. News flash: there are hardly any such people. Yes, there is Salman Rushdie and a lesbian radio host in Canada who have gotten a lot of attention. I like some of the things these Muslim liberals are saying. But they have no constituency in the Muslim world. That world is divided between the Islamic radicals and traditional Muslims. The left is allied with the Islamic radicals, so common sense says the right should build ties with traditional Muslims. Besides, there is no way to win the war on terror without driving a wedge between radicals and traditionalists. The traditional Muslims are the recruiting pool for radical Islam. Even if we kill 100 radicals, it’s no use if 500 traditional Muslims join the next day. So we have to find a way of drying up radical Islam’s recruitment. Whenever we attack Islam or say that Muhammad was the founder of terrorism, we are pursuing a self-defeating strategy because we are driving traditional Muslims into the hands of the radicals. My book, however, has specific suggestions for how America can work with traditional Muslims to defeat not only Islamic radicalism but also the global influence of the cultural left.

FP: Dinesh D’Souza, thank you for joining us.

D’Souza: It’s been a pleasure.


TOPICS: Editorial
KEYWORDS: liberalism
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1 posted on 01/23/2007 5:18:02 PM PST by Free ThinkerNY
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To: Free ThinkerNY

I don't think there's any question that the Islamic world hates America because of the values/behaviors cherished by the cultural left. Shortly before the fall of the Shah of Iran, thousands of Iranian students fled to the US and enrolled in American colleges. My school admitted hundreds of them, few of whom could even speak English. As these students experienced American life, they grew increasingly hostile--and learned enough of the language to make that hostility known.

It wasn't our democracy they despised. It was our very casual, recreational approach to sex and sexuality. They described us as decadent beyond anything they had imagined possible, and they were horrified that the Shah was bringing our depraved ways back to their own country. If they had not returned to Iran to help create the Islamic state there, I have no doubt that some of them would have started murdering Americans at random.


2 posted on 01/23/2007 5:30:55 PM PST by madprof98 ("moritur et ridet" - salvianus)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

"The traditional Muslims are the recruiting pool for radical Islam."

Finally someone who gauges the situation.

We have millions of "traditional" Muslims right here living among us - the breeding place for our future terrorists. We don't have to go to Iraq to find terrorists - they are shopping at Niemann Marcus, attending our universities, eating BBQ (beef that is), paying taxes and trying to get well settled in American society and politics.

Courtesy of those who promote diversity.


3 posted on 01/23/2007 5:31:05 PM PST by 353FMG (I never met a liberal I didn't dislike.)
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To: Free ThinkerNY
Islamic culture is especially conservative in valuing female modesty and childhood innocence.

False. Islamic culture is especially conservative in valuing the public appearance of female modesty and childhood innocence. In private they abuse both, often violently.

4 posted on 01/23/2007 5:31:07 PM PST by Carry_Okie (Grovelnator Schwarzenkaiser: Bringing fashionable fascism to Kaleeforia, one charade at a time.)
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To: Carry_Okie
In private they abuse both, often violently.

Same could more easily be said of Baptists, if you're going to judge an entire faith by the acts of certain individuals who use it as a cloak of respectability.

5 posted on 01/23/2007 5:34:20 PM PST by Mr. Jeeves ("When the government is invasive, the people are wanting." -- Tao Te Ching)
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To: Free ThinkerNY
I agree with D'Souza on most things but have to part company here. I spent a short tour in Saudi Arabia in the nineties. Pirate video stores were crammed with the latest in American movies. The malls all had at least one Fredrick's of Hollywood. Saudis in particular may cover their women but they covet western society.

When one discovers that their civilization, that once invented mathematics is on the bottom wrung of progress then a certain amount of hostility can ensue. The Arabs have that anger in spades.
6 posted on 01/23/2007 5:34:37 PM PST by samm1148 (Pennsylvania-They haven't taxed air--yet)
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To: madprof98
I don't think there's any question that the Islamic world hates America because of the values/behaviors cherished by the cultural left.

I think there's plenty of question about it. The Islamic world hates America because America is not part of the Islamic world. Simple as that. Several reviewers of D'Souza's book have pointed out that Sayid Qutb, the spiritual father of today's jihadi mindset, was appalled by the US of the '40s - long before the values/behaviors cherished by the cultural left had been adopted.

They'd have no more regard for an America that met with Pat Robertson's complete approval. The only America that would meet with their approval would be one that practiced shari'a law and included fealty to Islam in it's Constitution.
7 posted on 01/23/2007 5:46:22 PM PST by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: madprof98

Immoral sex has been in Islamic society for longer than the United States has existed. From selling young girls into temporary arranged marriages or forced prostitution, to wealthy Muslims keeping sex slaves locked in their palaces, to gangs of thugs assaulting not only young female but also young male tourists, they have had plenty of decadence of their own.

D'Souza gives the Islamic nihilists way too much credit. Conservatives should not fall into the Jerry Falwell/D'Souza trap.


8 posted on 01/23/2007 5:46:45 PM PST by Clintonfatigued ("Appointing Earl Warren was the biggest damn fool thing I ever did." Dwight D. Eisenhower)
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To: Mr. Jeeves
Same could more easily be said of Baptists,

It could be said all right, but then it would be bull. Islam has had a sexuality problem since its inception. Pederasty is rampant as the entertainment of choice from the Gulf States to Morocco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_the_Islamic_lands

9 posted on 01/23/2007 5:48:02 PM PST by Carry_Okie (Grovelnator Schwarzenkaiser: Bringing fashionable fascism to Kaleeforia, one charade at a time.)
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To: Free ThinkerNY
the cultural Left is responsible for 9/11

This is like a "Duh" headline.

10 posted on 01/23/2007 5:49:13 PM PST by Hardastarboard (DemocraticUnderground.com is an internet hate site.)
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To: samm1148

I think that many Muslims like what science provides but have little connection to science per se.
They are consumers of it, not producers.


11 posted on 01/23/2007 5:50:04 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

bttt


12 posted on 01/23/2007 5:51:43 PM PST by petercooper (Cemeteries & the ignorant - comprising 2 of the largest Democrat voting blocs for the past 75 years.)
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To: Clintonfatigued; AnotherUnixGeek

Believe anything that you want to. I discussed an experience I had with a large group of Iranian Muslims, most of whom enthusiastically helped create the Islamic state there. It was clear to me that they hated the same things about America that many social conservatives do--especially porn and promiscuity. I suppose they especially hated them because they found them tempting. Similar opportunities for recreational sex may have been available in their homeland, but these young men were astonished (and appalled) at how easily and widely available they are here in the USA. I think D'Souza is right on target here. When the facts about the 9/11 killers came out, my first thought was "I know these guys - I know them very well."


13 posted on 01/23/2007 6:05:20 PM PST by madprof98 ("moritur et ridet" - salvianus)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

Hugh Hewitt thrashed this guy, but I have to admit, wrt what he just wrote, I'd have to wholehearted agree with him: we don't offer an acceptable choice, and our 'face' is immoral. Obviously, slaughtering others is by definition (for us) immoral, but they are doing it for their Moon God, Satan, oops, Allah. That is somewhat of a crazy consistency.


14 posted on 01/23/2007 6:25:52 PM PST by Hoosier-Daddy (It's a fight to the death with Democrats.)
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To: RobbyS
"I think that many Muslims like what science provides but have little connection to science per se.
They are consumers of it, not producers."

You're right there. I forgot about that. The electronic gadget stores were all over. That and I worked extensively with their Air Force; both in Saudi and the UAE. They looked on western equipment with an almost toylike treatment rather than as tools of war.
15 posted on 01/23/2007 6:28:01 PM PST by samm1148 (Pennsylvania-They haven't taxed air--yet)
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To: madprof98

I agree as well. I attended military training with two Muslim officers from friendly countries. I talked at length with both of them about worldviews and their countries. Both of them struck me as rather moderate.

Both of them were shocked at what they saw in the U.S. We have not always exported what is best about America....

Having lived a few years in Europe though I have to say the cultural liberties he references are even greater in Europe. Based on that I would have to say there are other reasons why we are the Great Satan (Israel perhaps?).


16 posted on 01/23/2007 6:30:50 PM PST by volunbeer (Dear heaven.... we really need President Reagan again!)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

Poor Danesh.......he made Glenn Beck nearly do pee pee in his pants when it was time for the interview.


17 posted on 01/23/2007 6:42:50 PM PST by OldFriend (THE PRESS IS AN EVIL FOR WHICH THERE IS NO REMEDY)
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To: OldFriend

Oops....Dinesh


18 posted on 01/23/2007 6:44:14 PM PST by OldFriend (THE PRESS IS AN EVIL FOR WHICH THERE IS NO REMEDY)
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To: AnotherUnixGeek; OldFriend
Your statement.

The Islamic world hates America because America is not part of the Islamic world. Simple as that.

A general overview of history will bear this out. Before America, there were great empires. Christianity ruled. Legendary cities flourished. Yet Islam sundered a vast part of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. This you will probably know, but I had to make a point.

The Battle of Lepanto and the Siege of Vienna were not over the sexual mores of the day. It was sheer conquest.

To OldFriend, I saw Glen Beck. Have to support the guy on many things, but he got caught flatfooted with D'Souza. We can all have varying views on this business of "hate America". The thing is to cull what we can, to add to our knowledge.

One could list say ten things, that have seemingly turned around the view of America, including those views of now weak,decadent Europeans. The "cultural left" is one. The fawning, unpatriotic, America depreciating Hollywood celebrities are in the same category . I count the likes of the Dixie Chicks and Michael Moore et al with them. Then there are certain vile academics. Those educators who seek to destroy every vestige of the American story are another group. Imagine these foreign students sitting their listening to them?

I was a child in WW2 in England. We would have starved without America. Some of us do not forget. I await Sean Hannitty's rallying cry. His quote.

Let not your heart be troubled.

19 posted on 01/23/2007 7:25:43 PM PST by Peter Libra
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To: Free ThinkerNY

bookmark


20 posted on 01/23/2007 8:02:38 PM PST by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: Free ThinkerNY
I used to admire D'Souza, but it seems he has joined the Rev. Phelps cult of America-haters. I, for one, am proud of the sin and flash of American culture. If it's so evil, then why would the whole world be trying to emulate it as fast as they can? The mullahs are afraid of losing control over their own young people, that's all.

Meanwhile, the Ummah offers us...beheadings with rusty knives. That's morality?

21 posted on 01/23/2007 8:07:47 PM PST by BlazingArizona (co)
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To: BlazingArizona
I used to admire D'Souza, but it seems he has joined the Rev. Phelps cult of America-haters.

Have you read What's so Great About America? If you have, you will know that Mr. D'Souza loves America.

22 posted on 01/23/2007 8:29:59 PM PST by MistrX
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To: Free ThinkerNY

"the cultural Left is responsible for 9/11)"

It was only a matter of time before the political knives would come out in service of blaming partisan America for 9/11. I just thought it would be the left that would be sufficiently despicable to blame other Americans for Islam murdering us in the thousands. I was wrong.


23 posted on 01/23/2007 8:30:54 PM PST by gcruse (http://garycruse.blogspot.com/)
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To: MistrX

Agreed. A powerful book, and right on the money. If someone thinks Dinesh D'Souza hates America, they don't know what they are talking about.

He is the epitome of what all immigrants to this country should be.


24 posted on 01/23/2007 8:48:45 PM PST by rlmorel (Islamofacism: It is all fun and games until someone puts an eye out. Or chops off a head.)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

D'Souza is scheduled to be the guest on C-Span2's "In Depth" on Sunday February 4th - those both pro and con what he has to say will have three hours in which to call/e-mail with questions and comments for him - these first-Sunday-of-the-month sessions are usually fascinating......


25 posted on 01/23/2007 8:54:48 PM PST by Intolerant in NJ
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To: gcruse

Dinesh D'Souza is spot on. While I acknowledge your point that the perpetrators of 9/11 are indeed responsible for their actions, Mr. D'Souza's historical perspective is right on the money. The seeds were sown with American liberalism.

It may be true that if there was no Khomeini, there could still have been a Bin Laden or someone like him in the absence of Khomeini. But there was a Khomeini, and the root and rot of much of the current state of affairs can be traced back to that.

And it is not the French that caused the Shah to topple. It was not the Saudis. It was not the Soviets. Or the Chinese. It was Jimmy Carter and American liberalism that caused the downfall of the Shah.


26 posted on 01/23/2007 8:55:10 PM PST by rlmorel (Islamofacism: It is all fun and games until someone puts an eye out. Or chops off a head.)
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To: Intolerant in NJ

'D'Souza is scheduled to be the guest on C-Span2's "In Depth" on Sunday February 4th - those both pro and con what he has to say will have three hours in which to call/e-mail with questions and comments for him - these first-Sunday-of-the-month sessions are usually fascinating......'

Thanks for letting us know...about D Souza being on C-span 2, He is one of my fav ever since I read 'Letters to a Young Conservative.


27 posted on 01/23/2007 8:57:47 PM PST by aimee5291
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To: rlmorel

It's not that I'm averse to seeing deep roots. Shoot, I blame the French for WWII. But, and I am only being partly facetious, when we start blaming each other, the terrorists have won.


28 posted on 01/23/2007 8:59:04 PM PST by gcruse (http://garycruse.blogspot.com/)
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To: gcruse

Sorry. Didn't mean to sound like I was lecturing there...I know what you mean.

However, I view the left, or precisely, the America hating moonbat left as being just as much, possibly more danger to this country than most muslims.

I guess I just don't see blaming the left as "blaming each other", since I don't really see them as "each other".


29 posted on 01/23/2007 9:06:00 PM PST by rlmorel (Islamofacism: It is all fun and games until someone puts an eye out. Or chops off a head.)
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To: Clintonfatigued

D'Souza is just throwing the librals' "why do they hate us" garbage back in their faces. They hate us because of you, librals. No it's not because of Ronald Reagan and global apartheid and the growing gap between the rich and the poor. It's because of you, "the pagans, the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America." Falwell was right.


30 posted on 01/23/2007 9:10:51 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe

"[blame those] who have tried to secularize America."

They hate us because we aren't Christian enough? Now I've heard it all.


31 posted on 01/23/2007 9:16:44 PM PST by gcruse (http://garycruse.blogspot.com/)
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To: rlmorel

Amen, brother.


32 posted on 01/23/2007 9:39:41 PM PST by MistrX
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To: Intolerant in NJ

Thanks. I'll try to catch it.


33 posted on 01/23/2007 10:06:30 PM PST by Free ThinkerNY ((((Truth shall set you free))))
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To: madprof98
It was our very casual, recreational approach to sex and sexuality. They described us as decadent beyond anything they had imagined possible, and they were horrified that the Shah was bringing our depraved ways back to their own country. If they had not returned to Iran to help create the Islamic state there, I have no doubt that some of them would have started murdering Americans at random.

I read somewhere that among the first things the Iranian revolutionaries did was to ransack the Tehren offices of Planned Parenthood. Food for thought.

34 posted on 01/23/2007 10:16:16 PM PST by Aikonaa
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To: Hardastarboard
the cultural Left is responsible for 9/11
This is like a "Duh" headli



Screw that. Your a blame America 1ster just from the right.

It was a pack of evil Jihadists who did this not a bunch of hippie leftists.
35 posted on 01/23/2007 10:17:19 PM PST by Blackirish (David Dinkins:"Rudy as President is kind of frightening.My question will be, will I move to Bermuda")
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To: madprof98
Shortly before the fall of the Shah of Iran, thousands of Iranian students fled to the US and enrolled in American colleges.

Not so. Iran had been sending students to the US for a long time under the Shah. At one point, they had nearly 50,000 students in the US, the largest number from any country.

It wasn't our democracy they despised. It was our very casual, recreational approach to sex and sexuality. They described us as decadent beyond anything they had imagined possible, and they were horrified that the Shah was bringing our depraved ways back to their own country. If they had not returned to Iran to help create the Islamic state there, I have no doubt that some of them would have started murdering Americans at random.

The students in the US were part of the coalition of forces outside and within Iran that formed the revolution. The mullahs, led by Khomeini, hijacked the revolution away from the intelligentsia and the bazaaries. The Shah was not liked by many because of the corruption, Western ways, and Savak, the secret police. I don't think sex and sexuality played that big a role except among the poor and illiterate. It is too simplistic an explanation. At one time, there were more women in the Iranian parliament than in the US Congress.

36 posted on 01/23/2007 10:22:02 PM PST by kabar
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To: volunbeer; MistrX; gcruse
Having lived a few years in Europe though I have to say the cultural liberties he references are even greater in Europe. Based on that I would have to say there are other reasons why we are the Great Satan (Israel perhaps?).


Screw you too. Blame America 1sters on FR...We have boys fighting these bastards and you blame us....damn you all.
37 posted on 01/23/2007 10:22:11 PM PST by Blackirish (David Dinkins:"Rudy as President is kind of frightening.My question will be, will I move to Bermuda")
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To: madprof98
When the facts about the 9/11 killers came out, my first thought was "I know these guys - I know them very well."

Many of the hijackers were not devout Muslims. During their stay in the US, they frequented bars and strip clubs. Many Saudis go to Egypt and Bahrain to experience the night life and sex for hire. The practice of Islam varies widely by country.

38 posted on 01/23/2007 10:28:29 PM PST by kabar
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To: gcruse
I apologize for including you it was an error.
39 posted on 01/23/2007 10:30:20 PM PST by Blackirish (David Dinkins:"Rudy as President is kind of frightening.My question will be, will I move to Bermuda")
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Another hate America 1ster.


40 posted on 01/23/2007 10:35:59 PM PST by Blackirish (David Dinkins:"Rudy as President is kind of frightening.My question will be, will I move to Bermuda")
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To: samm1148
"I agree with D'Souza on most things but have to part company here. I spent a short tour in Saudi Arabia in the nineties. Pirate video stores were crammed with the latest in American movies. The malls all had at least one Fredrick's of Hollywood. Saudis in particular may cover their women but they covet western society."

I'm reading the book now and I think you misunderstand. The traditional muslims will tell you that Western "decadence" is very appealing to muslims. That doesn't mean it is good or constructive or (in wisdom) desirable. It's because it is so appealing that they are so angry.

When they say the "Great Satan," D'Souza points out that in Islam, even more than Christianity, "Satan" is not so much "the Destroyer: as he is "the Tempter."

41 posted on 01/23/2007 10:36:05 PM PST by cookcounty (The "Greatest Generation" was also the most violent generation.)
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To: Blackirish

Actually Black I spent my years in uniform and ate my sand.

My brother-in-law, several close friends, and my former unit are over there now.

I don't blame America first since I believe these Islamofascist feel it is their religious duty to destroy us but that does not mean that a rational person cannot understand how liberal "Hollywood" culture could give a negative impression to other nations.

It is not improbable that more people in the middle east recognize Madonna than Dick Cheney. Like it or not Hollywood represents America in the minds of many overseas. Being a father of two youngsters I can see how that would give one pause if they were not used to it.

Thanks for the rational discussion. I am sorry my point did not meet your expectations so feel free to ignore my posts from now on. Have a nice evening.


42 posted on 01/23/2007 10:57:46 PM PST by volunbeer (Dear heaven.... we really need President Reagan again!)
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To: everyone

There is something to what D'Souza says. Thanks to Hollywood, America does present a bad image to many people around the world.


43 posted on 01/23/2007 11:11:22 PM PST by California Patriot ("That's not Charlie the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: volunbeer
At a certain point you must respect those who have served in the Armed forces.

But when you start blaming Madonna for Islamist maniacs rammimg planes into the World Trade Center...or planning dirty bombs in NYC and Chicago....you have lost your way.

Madonna is not disemboweling American GI's or burning Blackwater volunteers to a crisp.
This war has been on and off since 600 BC before Jesus or mohammad.
America has done more to save lives lives ...invent medications ..then any country ever.... not to mention our economic engine has helped lift the entire world out of misery. From the Declaration of Independence to inventing flight... blue jeans and rock and roll too standing down the commies and the nazis the world owes us a debt of gratitude.We are exceptionally.

WE ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR 9/11!
44 posted on 01/23/2007 11:24:53 PM PST by Blackirish (David Dinkins:"Rudy as President is kind of frightening.My question will be, will I move to Bermuda")
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To: Blackirish

I agree we are not to blame for 9/11. My blood still boils everytime I think about that day.

I simply pointed out that it is easy to see how socially conservative people (i.e. good old Southern Baptist like me or Mansi the Muslim like he referenced in his interview) find a lot of the filth being spewed out of Hollywood, cable talk shows (why does O'Reilly interview this trash?), and our universally popular music.... offensive.

Think about walking through a mall and seeing a young kid with his pants down around his knees, a smirk on his face, and a ballcap on sideways. I admit being a little dubious about the character of that kid before I even meet him. It's even worse after you hear him slaughter the english language. That kid is the unfortunate cultural image of America to many foreigners.

It's a fair point like it or not. FWIW - I don't think that kid represents the majority of America but if all I saw and heard was propaganda from my preacher, slanted news about America, and all I actually saw of America was bootleg DVD's and CD's at the flea market I might think this country was a messed up place.

To defeat your enemy you must first understand them. I won't try to understand the Islamofascist but I can at least sympathize with a Saudi father whose kid wants to listen to Eminem.

P.S. - I have a good buddy with Blackwater as well. That's good money if you don't get killed.


45 posted on 01/23/2007 11:43:55 PM PST by volunbeer (Dear heaven.... we really need President Reagan again!)
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To: AnotherUnixGeek
"question"

You are correct. Obviously many people like D'Souza have either/or mindsets. They cannot understand that people, like Islamo-fasctists, can have multiple reasons for hating us and wanting to destroy us. Sure they hate the leftist drive towards hedonism and immorality. But they also hate democracy. They associate all Americans with sharing the same values. And in fact average Dems and Republicans are far closer in shared social values than either group would like to admit. Certainly far closer that religious fanatics like Bin-laden and the rest. The I-F's hate ALL!!! of our western values and mores...the good and the bad. They hate us ...period.

46 posted on 01/24/2007 3:25:43 AM PST by driftless2
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To: gcruse; Carry_Okie; 353FMG; Mr. Jeeves; Clintonfatigued; volunbeer; Peter Libra; BlazingArizona; ...

It is no coincidence Islamic pagans hate Israel, Jews, Christians and Western Civilization. The entire basis of Western Civilization is Mosaic Law, something both the Neo-Pagan Left and the pagan Islamic thugs cannot abide and wish to destroy.

The very idea that human beings have individual rights not subject to the whims of an earthly monarch, but subject to the laws of Yahweh, is directly from Moses.

Historically, this is proven over and over again with the successive conflicts between the forces of paganism and the Judaic culture. (This includes the idolatry of cultural Marxist paganism.)


47 posted on 01/24/2007 3:42:45 AM PST by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: driftless2; AnotherUnixGeek
They cannot understand that people, like Islamo-fasctists, can have multiple reasons for hating us and wanting to destroy us.

The Left and the Islamofascists both hate the Laws of Moses and the Judaic culture.

see #47...

48 posted on 01/24/2007 3:55:41 AM PST by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: Free ThinkerNY
Probably the best discussion on the subject that I've read. I only recently found D'Souza's writing, I'm going to read more of it. I disagree slightly with what he percieves the lef thates. They don't hate the right, they hate themselves. Hence gun control, they percieve themselves going postal if they had access to a semi automatic rifle. Hence their attempts at racial preferences, they are prejudiced. Go to a union meeting and mention rap music, you will hear the word 'nigger' more times than if you were at a Klan meeting.

Regarding democracy, D'Souza said something that I had not considered. Of course radical Islam favors democracy, democracy is the pure will of the people. We do not live in a democracy, we live in a constitutional republic. Democracy killed Socrates, among its other sins. If you can control the popular mindset through propaganda, fear, or a combination of both, your cause is a sure winner in a democracy. Even under the rule of law, the popular mindset prevails unless the law is willing to enforce its provisions without favoritism. Look at the segregated south, the treatment of Irish immigrants in the north, and the treatment of Vietnam draft dodgers by Carter for examples right here. Or look at 'hate crime' prosecutions in New York for examples of popular will perverting the rule of law.

When your democratic constituents riot becuase a newspaper a thousand miles away publishes cartoons, and they wear masks and bring their rifles, you have the mindset and the fear to do whatever you want. What fascist would turn away from that?

49 posted on 01/24/2007 3:58:08 AM PST by sig226 (See my profile for the democrat culture of corruption list.)
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To: Blackirish; All

I think there is a basic disconnect here, and it is the fault of the interviewer.

I will preface this with this statement: When we hear the words "quoted out of context" around here, it is usually liberals trying to make an excuse and weasel out of what they said, which is usually exactly what they mean.

In this case, this short interview with Dinesh D'Souza is very much taken out of context. In the interview, Dinesh D'Souza speaks with the bank of knowledge that comes from having written his book, the interviewer has read it, as have many of us who agree with the points Mr. D'Souza makes.

The point is, if you have read his book "What's So Great About America", you understand perfectly the context in which this discussion takes place. Without having read it, it is akin to listening to a joke between a bunch of friends who all "get the joke" because of a shared experience, and you, as an outsider, are puzzled that those in on the joke can double over laughing.

Anyone else on this discussion who HAS read his book...do you agree with me? BlackIrish, if you read his book, you would understand he is NOT by any stretch of the imagination a "Hate America Firster".

He wrote his book "What's So Great About America" by deliberately choosing to view the USA through the eyes of one type of "foreigner" (an immigrant teenager from India) to help us see America through the eyes of another type of foreigner.

The book is most definitely NOT a "Why do they hate us" book, it is more oriented towards explaining our enemy so that we have a better understanding of why we need to fight them.

Basically, in the book, he talks at length about these issues, and you realize that the title of the book is only the hanging question, and the entire book is the answer about what actually IS so great about America.

I feel 100% confident that anyone who has read the book will agree with me. There is a major context issue.


50 posted on 01/24/2007 4:08:40 AM PST by rlmorel (Islamofacism: It is all fun and games until someone puts an eye out. Or chops off a head.)
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