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To: Miss Marple
You're perfectly correct. It is very difficult to know what "evils and disorders" will come from war and that's one reason why the Church is so careful in its approach to the question of its declaration. If the ideal outcome which you describe indeed comes to pass, then it would definitely be seen as worth the cost in the suffering of the indigenous Iraqis and the deaths of US soldiers. At the moment, the situation looks worlds away from that but one lives in hope.

I take dispute with your claim that we went in to stop Saddam acquiring nuclear weapons. My understanding was that we believed he already had "weapons of mass destruction". Hence the thorough search and subsequent recriminations when it came up empty. I also believe that an Islamic Iraq is more of a threat to Middle Eastern peace than the previous version run by a secular dictator.

As for Iran, I consider any country with a radical Islamic leadership and nuclear weaponry to be a clear danger which may well merit a pre-emptive strike. However, we must be absolutely certain that it has the weapon(s), and not merely suspect it through half-baked intelligence. It's not sufficient simply to have "good intentions" when starting a war. Most errors are made sincerely and with the belief that the right thing is being done.

62 posted on 01/26/2007 12:53:06 PM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
No, if you will go back and read President Bush's speeches, you will see that we were worried that he was on the brink of acquiring them. If we thought he HAD had nuclear weapons, we would have blasted those areas into oblivion, and the entire world would have been on red alert.

Do not let the media rewrite history for you. I realize when people get busy, memories fade, and the constant drumbeat of media lies can get into one's brain.

Remember the phrase "I will not wait while dangers gather"?

63 posted on 01/26/2007 1:39:22 PM PST by Miss Marple (Prayers for Jemian's son,: Lord, please keep him safe and bring him home .)
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To: marshmallow
I posted before I was finished. What WMD's we were certain he had were chemical and biological weapons. We have found traces and small amounts of both, but not the large stockpiles that the media insists are necessary to prove that "Bush didn't lie." Besides the fact that he wouldn't allow inspectors in, and the fact that holding even a small amount of these items was in violation of the truce signed after Gulf War I and UN Mandates, it is quite likely that large amounts of the chemical weapons were hidden or moved into Syria. Lots of stuff went on while we listened to the UN drone on and on over that last resolution.

As far as Iran, I hate to tell you this, but NO intelligence is ever certain. No President is omnicsient; only God has that power. We make decisions based on the best intelligence we can get.

Iran, however, isnt hiding much of anything, are they? They are telling us that they are going to acquire a nuclear capability. They are telling us that they are launching a satellite missile. My personal opinion is that they are trying to bait us into an ambush, which is why the President is being so careful. However, there doesn't seem to be much doubt that they are working towards nuclear weaponry.

And since North Korea already has nuclear weapons, what are we to do with them?

I do not envy the President's responsibility. He alone has the burden of keeping this nation safe; to him the final decisions fall. He doesn't have the advantage of hindsight, nor the luxury of second chances or do-overs if he is wrong. He has to rely on the best intelligence he can get, which isn't always accurate, and he has to look into the faces of families who have lost loved ones in this fight.

I do not think he made this decision recklessly nor without the consideration of morality, despite what many think. I also think he is doing what any president of normal moral fiber and intelligence would have done in the same situation.

How easily people forget the months after September 11.

64 posted on 01/26/2007 1:51:27 PM PST by Miss Marple (Prayers for Jemian's son,: Lord, please keep him safe and bring him home .)
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To: marshmallow

I just wanted to mention a few things:

1) Saddam was not secular. The media has tried to spread that particular lie and it's unfortunate that so many people bought into it and that the administration didn't have a spokesman who could go on national television to tell the truth about this matter.

Saddam wrote out the Koran in his own blood. It took him three years. He carried the Koran to his hanging. That doesn't sound terribly secular to me.

2) There were two primary reasons we went to Iraq:

Fear expressed by the UN itself and every single intelligence agency in the world was convinced he was working toward a nuclear weapon and had reconstituted his WMD program AND because of his ties to Al Qaeda.

Back in the 1990's, the media wrote frequently about the world's alarm at the growing relationship between Saddam and OBL and AQ. Links to that and more about the relationship here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1698371/posts

You probably remember the president saying shortly after 9/11 we weren't going to just go after the terrorists but those who harbored terrorists? Well, Saddam was considered the ATM to terrorists. In fact there is a newspaper article by that title.

Saddam was trying to reconstitute his nuclear program. Joe Wilson told Congress privately a different story that he told them publicly. Sen. Roberts has said as much on national television. Roberts has stated that Wilson confirmed the CIA's fear that Saddam was trying to purchase yellowcake uranium from Niger.

Also, every single person charged with finding Iraq's WMD program has speculated that it's entirely possible they were shipped to Syria before the war. You will probably recall that Colin Powell showed the UN and the world watching satellite video of convoys of trucks leaving known WMD sites (according to the UN they were known WMD sites) and headed to the Syrian border.

John A. Shaw, a former U.S. deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said Russian Spetsnaz units moved WMD to Syria and Lebanon's Bekaa Valley.

"While in Iraq I received information from several sources naming the exact Russian units, what they took and where they took both WMD materials and conventional explosives," Mr. Shaw told NewsMax reporter Charles Smith.

Retired Marine Lt. Gen. Michael DeLong was deputy commander of Central Command during Operation Iraqi Freedom. In September 2004, he told WABC radio that "I do know for a fact that some of those weapons went into Syria, Lebanon and Iran."

In January 2004, David Kay, the first head of the Iraq Survey Group which conducted the search for Saddam's WMD, told a British newspaper there was evidence unspecified materials had been moved to Syria from Iraq shortly before the war.

"We know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD program," Mr. Kay told the Sunday Telegraph.

Also that month, Nizar Nayuf, a Syrian journalist who defected to an undisclosed European country, told a Dutch newspaper he knew of three sites where Iraq's WMD was being kept. They were the town of al Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria; the Syrian air force base near the village of Tal Snan, and the city of Sjinsar on the border with Lebanon.

In an addendum to his final report last April, Charles Duelfer, who succeeded David Kay as head of the Iraq Survey Group, said he couldn't rule out a transfer of WMD from Iraq to Syria.

"There was evidence of a discussion of possible WMD collaboration initiated by a Syrian security officer, and ISG received information about movement of material out of Iraq, including the possibility that WMD was involved. In the judgment of the working group, these reports were sufficiently credible to merit further investigation," Mr. Duelfer said.

In a briefing for reporters in October 2003, retired Air Force Lt. Gen. James Clapper Jr., who was head of the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency when the Iraq war began, said satellite imagery showed a heavy flow of traffic from Iraq into Syria just before the American invasion.

"I think the people below Saddam Hussein and his sons' level saw what was coming and decided the best thing to do was to destroy and disperse," Lt. Gen. Clapper said.

You haven't heard much about these reports, because they contradict the meme that Saddam either had no WMD, or destroyed it well before the Iraq war began.


68 posted on 01/26/2007 2:14:40 PM PST by Peach (The Clintons pardoned more terrorists than they captured or killed.)
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To: marshmallow
"However, we must be absolutely certain that it has the weapon(s), and not merely suspect it through half-baked intelligence."


How can you be absolutely certain if you do not search for the existence of the WMD?
How do you know that the intelligence is at half-baked if you do not prove it?
How can you search a hostile country to the UN inspections, knowing that they have been using WMD against their own people?
70 posted on 01/26/2007 3:08:57 PM PST by SeeSalt
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