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Giuliani's 9/11 handling may fuel campaign debate
Reuters on Yahoo ^ | 2/7/07 | Daniel Trotta

Posted on 02/07/2007 10:28:17 AM PST by NormsRevenge

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Former New York mayor and presidential hopeful Rudolph Giuliani gained fame for his performance after the September 11 attacks, but charges that he also made serious blunders could give ammunition to rival candidates.

Giuliani, a Republican, has all but formally declared his candidacy and polls show he is a strong contender, largely because of his steely and comforting leadership that day in 2001.

But Giuliani also made mistakes in handling the city's emergency services that may have cost lives, say the co-authors of the 2006 book "Grand Illusion: The Untold Story of Rudy Giuliani and 9/11." Of the 2,992 people killed in the hijacked plane attacks, 2,759 died at New York's World Trade Center.

Such criticism raises the possibility the former mayor may be attacked on his perceived strength, as 2004 Democratic nominee John Kerry was when his Vietnam War record was called into question.

A Giuliani aide defended his performance, noting that 25,000 people were safety evacuated from the danger zone.

The Giuliani campaign is more concerned about attacks on his personal life, including his three marriages, and support for gay rights and abortion rights could also alienate social conservatives crucial to the winning the Republican nomination.

"Clearly if you want to take Rudy Giuliani down or out you've got to go after 9/11 but it's going to be a tough job to deconstruct that heroic narrative," said Doug Muzzio, public affairs professor at New York's Baruch College.

"There is a lot that went on that day and prior that if fully known would tarnish the mythology of 'America's Mayor,"' Muzzio said, using a nickname some have attached to Giuliani.

"Grand Illusion," written by two journalists, says that in the late 1990s Giuliani went against the advice of police and emergency management experts and placed the city's emergency command center in the World Trade Center complex, which had been bombed in 1993 and was a presumed future target.

The command center had to be abandoned on September 11, 2001, after hijacked planes slammed into two skyscrapers next door. In the chaos that ensued Giuliani allowed fire and police commanders to be separated in violation of the city's own protocols, co-authors Wayne Barrett and Dan Collins say.

LACK OF COMMUNICATION

As a result, police and fire commanders could not coordinate search and rescue efforts. The National Institute of Standards and Technology concluded in a 2005 report that emergency responder lives likely were lost at the trade center because of the lack of communication.

"In the madness of that hour, of that 102 minutes, normally you would say that's an understandable failure," Barrett said. "The reason he is subject to criticism is because he has portrayed himself as a man of great decision and judgment that day."

A Giuliani aide declined to address specific questions about the command center's location or the separation of police and fire commanders.

"The fact that an estimated 25,000 people were safely evacuated from lower Manhattan speaks volumes about the city's response," the aide said in a statement.

The world remembers video of the soot-covered Giuliani at the scene the day of the attacks, keeping his cool while informing the public, sympathizing with the victims and ordering an around-the-clock rescue effort.

Meanwhile, President Bush was kept at a safe distance from New York and Washington for most of the day, enhancing Giuliani's image.

Former Mayor Ed Koch, a Democrat, said he too was critical of Giuliani's ill-fated decision on the emergency command post, but he doubted that issue would have much impact on the campaign. He also said Giuliani's popularity was waning before the attacks.

"He's entitled to all of the support and honors that he receives around the world for the courage and leadership that he displayed on 9/11," Koch said. "But he couldn't have been re-elected on 9/10."

As mayor, Giuliani was credited with reducing crime but also with strong-armed rule. Amnesty International accused New York City police of brutality and abuse and race relations were tense. He once enraged many among the city's liberal-leaning artistic community by trying to cut off funding from a city museum over a painting of the Virgin Mary made partially from elephant dung.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; Politics/Elections; US: New York
KEYWORDS: 911; debate; electionpresident; giuliani; giuliani2008; gungrabbingrino; handling; papertigerrino; wot
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1 posted on 02/07/2007 10:28:19 AM PST by NormsRevenge
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To: All

Let's all try and keep the spam off the thread and keep it out of the weeds.

Thanks!


2 posted on 02/07/2007 10:29:16 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ......)
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To: NormsRevenge

I'm bored. Lets talk family values.

http://www.mondaymemo.net/020218feature.htm

His Uncle Leo owned a bar named Vincent's. Leo also ran gambling and loan-sharking operations out of the bar. He wasn't the only criminal in this mixed bag of families. Another was Rudy's dad.

Harold Giuliani had seemed to have trouble holding jobs. He'd worked as a plumber's helper and several other jobs for short stretches. One reason he had trouble getting work was his criminal record. Harold had been convicted of a robbery and sent off to Sing Sing. In 1948, with a young son, he needed something steady. So he went to work for Leo.

In 2000, a Village Voice reporter, Wayne Barrett went public with details of Harold Giuliani's criminal past. They were part of an investigative biography of Giuliani and ran in the Voice. Barrett didn't just bring up the prison time. He also says that Harold was an enforcer for Uncle Leo's loan sharking and gambling operations. Giuliani claims he never knew details of his father's past.


3 posted on 02/07/2007 10:31:25 AM PST by FreeInWV
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To: NormsRevenge

Ya think all the anti-Rudy spammers are secretly McCainiacs?


4 posted on 02/07/2007 10:31:33 AM PST by ken5050
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Former New York City Mayor and presidential hopeful Rudolph Giuliani steps away from the podium after speaking at the New Hampshire Republican convention in Manchester, New Hampshire January 27, 2007. (Brian Snyder/Reuters)


5 posted on 02/07/2007 10:31:44 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ......)
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To: NormsRevenge
To ALL RINO-rudy-rooters...

The TRUTH shall set you free! (or, at least, make you a more informed conservative voter).

6 posted on 02/07/2007 10:33:12 AM PST by DocH (Gun-grabbers, you can HAVE my guns... lead first.)
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To: ken5050

Quite frankly, Ken, as this thing starts to unfold a full year out from meaningful primary results, nothing can surprise me around here anymore..

That we all will be subjected to a storm of it is what irks me.

In the end, it will come down to an emotional choice and I do not think that bodes well for the nation.


7 posted on 02/07/2007 10:34:12 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ......)
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To: NormsRevenge

I totally agree but I guess some don't - see the posts below yours.


8 posted on 02/07/2007 10:34:50 AM PST by areafiftyone (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - STRENGTH AND LEADERSHIP)
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To: areafiftyone

All I can say is, I tried.

On to the next one, ;-)


9 posted on 02/07/2007 10:37:09 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ......)
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To: Blackirish; Jameison; Sabramerican; BunnySlippers; tkathy; veronica; Roccus; Jake The Goose; ...

((((NO SPAM PING FOR RUDY))))


10 posted on 02/07/2007 10:37:14 AM PST by areafiftyone (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - STRENGTH AND LEADERSHIP)
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To: NormsRevenge

Well I did a no spam ping! Hopefully everyone will cooperate!


11 posted on 02/07/2007 10:38:09 AM PST by areafiftyone (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - STRENGTH AND LEADERSHIP)
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To: NormsRevenge
You're letting the actions and comments of a few disrupt you. Tis far better to just ignore them. I can't believe, that if the two nominees are Hilalry and Rudy, that most one-issue social conservatives..(whose positions I happen to agree with 100%), will sit home and allow another Clinton to RESTAIN the Oval office.

Rudy has to try and earn their votes. But they have to be willing to listen..

12 posted on 02/07/2007 10:38:45 AM PST by ken5050
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To: ken5050

Funny, I don't feel disrupted. ;-)

Used to love the Ignore feature at Yahoo.. wish we had a similar feature here,, but we don't.

Staying off a lot of threads works for me, if I want indigestion, I can cook for myself. :-)

In a year and a half's time, who knows? We may be looking at two different names atop the piles,, and those who have allegiances to the cores of both parties and their strengths had best work hard to work towards that being what we vote for and not some slickened candidates that we think we know all too well, lest we outfox ourselves.


13 posted on 02/07/2007 10:44:35 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ......)
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To: FreeInWV

Yep, that's all Rudy's fault. He picked the wrong family to be born into. By the way, is your family without any blemishes? I give Rudy alot of credit for rising above those who came before him.


14 posted on 02/07/2007 10:48:19 AM PST by Russ
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To: NormsRevenge
"Clearly if you want to take Rudy Giuliani down or out you've got to go after 9/11 but it's going to be a tough job to deconstruct that heroic narrative," said Doug Muzzio, public affairs professor at New York's Baruch College.

I see, New Orleans facing a known threat for years and neglecting to prepare was about the failure of the Federal Government. The WTC, however, a building not designed to withstand the impact of a commercial, fuel filled airplane is the fault of the mayor. The louder the critics the more I like Rudy.

15 posted on 02/07/2007 10:49:21 AM PST by Dolphy
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To: NormsRevenge
NY Squandered Billions in 9/11 Aid

That didn't happen on Giuliani's watch....

16 posted on 02/07/2007 10:50:21 AM PST by mewzilla (Property must be secured or liberty cannot exist. John Adams)
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To: FreeInWV

I fail to see what Uncle Leo and Daddy Harry have to do with Rudy today.


17 posted on 02/07/2007 10:52:00 AM PST by Ciexyz (In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths. Proverbs 3:16)
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To: Dolphy

Fortunately, we won't have to worry about Nagin or Blanco as national candidates ..

I don't know that we have ever had a national candidate win that had never held an elected office higher than Mayor.


18 posted on 02/07/2007 10:53:55 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ......)
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To: FreeInWV

Dear FreeInWV,

I'm not considering voting for the fathers of any of the announced candidates.


sitetest


19 posted on 02/07/2007 10:54:13 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: NormsRevenge
... written by two journalists ...

There's some background for ya.

20 posted on 02/07/2007 11:00:51 AM PST by JmyBryan
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To: ken5050


Ya think all the anti-Rudy spammers are secretly McCainiacs?






No I dont think they are McCainiacs, I think they are conservative Republicans. I dont think Rudy is.

Persobnally I think he was a great Governor for New York.
Period.


21 posted on 02/07/2007 11:01:51 AM PST by sgtbono2002 (I will forgive Jane Fonda, when the Jews forgive Hitler.)
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To: ken5050


Ya think all the anti-Rudy spammers are secretly McCainiacs?






No I dont think they are McCainiacs, I think they are conservative Republicans. I dont think Rudy is.

Personally I think he was a great Governor for New York.
Period.


22 posted on 02/07/2007 11:02:07 AM PST by sgtbono2002 (I will forgive Jane Fonda, when the Jews forgive Hitler.)
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To: FreeInWV; areafiftyone
Well, that makes us even, FreeInWV, because your post bores me.

Those of us who are FreeInNY know Giuliani as the man who did more than to clean up the City, including taking on the mob-Union connection than any mayor before or since.

By the way, the Voice Village, the paper you're quoting, is a homo-commie rag that once portrayed Giuliani on the cover as Hitler. I didn't know people in WVA read homo-commie papers. Live and learn.

23 posted on 02/07/2007 11:02:35 AM PST by RedRover
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To: NormsRevenge
Fortunately, we won't have to worry about Nagin or Blanco as national candidates ..

True enough but Rudy's critics on this issue have been around for a while now. In the meantime, politicians and others are still milking the failed Federal government angle on Katrina.

24 posted on 02/07/2007 11:04:01 AM PST by Dolphy
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To: FreeInWV

Thank you! You exposed Wayne Barrett as a reporter with a rabidly anti-Rudy slant, so extreme that he will try to smear the current candidate with things his father did when he was a small child. Now we know to take anything Barrett writes as anti-Rudy propaganda.

Good job!


25 posted on 02/07/2007 11:07:53 AM PST by RebelBanker (May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.)
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To: FreeInWV

Rudy's accomplishments are legendary in law enforcement versus the mob and Wall Street. I've been following his career closely since the early 80s with admiration.

I'm not going to hold what earlier family members did against him.


26 posted on 02/07/2007 11:08:47 AM PST by BunnySlippers (SAY YES TO RUDY !!!)
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To: Ciexyz; sitetest

"I fail to see what Uncle Leo and Daddy Harry have to do with Rudy today."

Lots of folks believe that apples don't fall far from the tree. Certainly, ones parents shape a child's perceptions of the world. According to others, his extended family harbored a junkie, a crooked cop and a murky mob wing. I'm not saying that he would follow in his father's footsteps, merely that the family that raised him had little in common with the family of your typical rural evangelical.


27 posted on 02/07/2007 11:12:34 AM PST by FreeInWV
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To: areafiftyone; BunnySlippers

The authors are Wayne Barrett and Dan Collins.

If it's the same Dan Collins, he's a senior producer at CBSNews.com, is a former New York correspondent for U.S. News & World Report and a reporter for the New York Daily News.

Barrett writes for the Village Voice and actually once wrote an article that the GOP funded Al Sharpton's presidential campaign. LOL

I think we can safely say this guy heads up conspiracy central.


28 posted on 02/07/2007 11:15:43 AM PST by Peach (The Clintons pardoned more terrorists than they captured or killed.)
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To: RedRover

"...homo-commie papers..."

Sounds awfully homophobic for a Rudy supporter! They just might vote you off the island. LOL!


29 posted on 02/07/2007 11:20:34 AM PST by FreeInWV
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To: Peach

The people at the Village Voice hate Rudy - have hated him since he was mayor. The Village Voice, NY Slimes, Newsday - they all hated him.


30 posted on 02/07/2007 11:24:29 AM PST by areafiftyone (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - STRENGTH AND LEADERSHIP)
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To: FreeInWV

This "extended family" stuff brings to mind the comments made against Geraldine Ferraro (remember that VP candidate) and her husband's business. These criticisms distressingly seem to pop up against Italo-American candidates.


31 posted on 02/07/2007 11:24:39 AM PST by Ciexyz (In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths. Proverbs 3:16)
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To: NormsRevenge

"Giuliani's 9/11 handling may fuel campaign debate"

Revision time.


32 posted on 02/07/2007 11:27:52 AM PST by EQAndyBuzz (The Clintons: A Malignant Malfeasance of the Most Morbid)
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To: Peach

I just Googled Dan Collins giuliani cbs

They are one and the same.


33 posted on 02/07/2007 11:29:10 AM PST by BunnySlippers (SAY YES TO RUDY !!!)
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To: FreeInWV
You don't know that I am a Rudy supporter. I came on this thread to see if things were as bad as I've heard.

I really don't understand why people disrupt whatever might pass for discussion. I don't understand what pleasure it gives you.

34 posted on 02/07/2007 11:29:50 AM PST by RedRover
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To: NormsRevenge

I dislike Rudy as a primary candidate, this is not on the list of the reasons, though.


35 posted on 02/07/2007 11:31:51 AM PST by Fierce Allegiance ("Campers laugh at clowns behind closed doors." GOHUNTER08!)
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To: Peach; areafiftyone

Rudy did not suffer fools gladly.

He told Sharpton and Jesse to get lost and refused to meet with them for the usual shakedown. Rudy refused to meet with the Black Muslims.

He kicked Arafat outta New York and told him not to come back. Rudy didn't diddle around with diplomatic channels ... he just threw him out!

:)


36 posted on 02/07/2007 11:31:57 AM PST by BunnySlippers (SAY YES TO RUDY !!!)
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To: BunnySlippers
Rudy's accomplishments are legendary in law enforcement versus the mob and Wall Street.

And law abiding gun owners.

37 posted on 02/07/2007 11:32:55 AM PST by Fierce Allegiance ("Campers laugh at clowns behind closed doors." GOHUNTER08!)
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To: NormsRevenge

....all I can say is the Klinton Mud machine is coming back into play....

Lets see how much we can smear Rudy....whether you like him or not, he has the right to run for POTUS and we as the voters of America have the right to either vote for him or not...but to drag him thru the mud is idiotic and childish....


38 posted on 02/07/2007 11:48:49 AM PST by HarleyLady27 (My ? to libs: "Do they ever shut up on your planet?" "Grow your own DOPE: Plant a LIB!")
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To: HarleyLady27

drag him thru the mud is idiotic and childish....


--

All thanks to the Politics of Personal Destruction. (Thanks, Bill!)

Why do you think so many folks just shrug and don't vote anymore?


39 posted on 02/07/2007 11:54:41 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ......)
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To: ken5050
Ya think all the anti-Rudy spammers are secretly McCainiacs?

No, we're conservatives. Is Rudy? Is mcpain?

40 posted on 02/07/2007 11:59:21 AM PST by processing please hold (Duncan Hunter '08) (ROP and Open Borders-a terrorist marriage and hell's coming with them)
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To: FreeInWV

Ronald Reagan's father was a drunk and a complete loser. Would you like to talk about THAT family and THAT apple?


41 posted on 02/07/2007 12:08:34 PM PST by nopardons
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To: FreeInWV

If someone reads the whole article, they'll see that it's not as negative as the parts you have selected.


42 posted on 02/07/2007 12:11:59 PM PST by popdonnelly (Conservatives must have their own long march through the institutions.)
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To: sgtbono2002
CONGRATULATIONS! You are posting about a subject you know nothing whatsoever about, even though thread have been thread after thread about ex MAYOR Giuliani, whose title is also all over this thread and YOU call him "governor". :-)
43 posted on 02/07/2007 12:13:04 PM PST by nopardons
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To: NormsRevenge
I am Duncan Hunter fan. So I won't bash any of them on this post. Why are we not hearing these ideas from candidates.

I will take action to;
Exec. Order abortion will be illegal De-fund NPR
Drill in every place there is oil.
Take SS benefits out of tax code.
Reform the laws which makes the ACLU and similar type of orgs for profit.
Tort reform.
Build the wall along our border with Mexico, completed within...2 years.
Deport all illegals, except those in our jails, within two weeks after they have been judged illegal.
Stop welfare for illegals.
Change the tax code to the Flat Tax or Fair Tax, Sun setting the present code 24 hours before the replacement goes into effect.
Firearms: Your CCW permit in your home state is valid in all states, counties and cities.
Return the First Amendment to what is was 10 or more years ago.
Reform [increase]pay for our military.
Break the NEA unions.
You believe in global warming / or cooling you pay for your research. Not the tax payer.
Quotas will be illegal.
And a host of other stuff.
44 posted on 02/07/2007 12:17:11 PM PST by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: NormsRevenge
I have said for some time that this subject would end up being a serious liability for Rudy Giuliani in a presidential election.

You can be sure that the media will be filled with stories from various family members of 9/11 victims, outraged -- and in some cases justifiably so -- about the role the city's gross ineptitude played in the tragic events of 9/11.

45 posted on 02/07/2007 12:23:28 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: tiger-one
WHY? Well, for starters, no president has the power to act like an emperor and if they did, you wouldn't like it, when a Dem was president!

No president can use an EO to make abortion illegal, defund NPR, nor anything else you have on that list.

Your wish list is something that a genie in a bottle wouldn't even grant, because genies only give you three wishes, as do "good" witches and fairies in FAIRY TALES. In reality, a president must work within the Constraints that the Constitutions gives him and which our form of government limits him to.

BTW, some of what is on your list are things that only states may deal with and other things, such as "breaking" the NEA is also out of the government's right, on ANY level! And there are more than just one teachers' union.

46 posted on 02/07/2007 12:33:29 PM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
Did you get the drift?

I am not about to sit here and get in a BS session with anyone about the legalities of what and how it can't or can be done.

Not my point..
47 posted on 02/07/2007 12:41:58 PM PST by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: FreeInWV

Dear FreeInWV,

"Lots of folks believe that apples don't fall far from the tree."

I'm not "lots of folks." The statement is insulting.

My father, born an Italian-American in Brooklyn in the 1920s, had plenty of relatives - close relatives - in organized crime. By saying what you say about Mr. Giuliani, you dishonor my father, who snuck into the armed forces during WWII (he was 4F), who served honorably aboard troop ships under fire in the Pacific Theater, who earned a college degree at night while supporting a stay-at-home wife and four children, who spent nearly four decades in industry and DOD, working on defense projects until his retirement, and who has continued service to his nation even in his retirement.

I wouldn't vote for Mr. Giuliani on a bet.

But there are plenty, PLENTY of valid conservative complaints with which to challenge his candidacy.

This isn't one of them.

It's nothing but a smear.


sitetest


48 posted on 02/07/2007 12:47:27 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: ken5050
Ya think all the anti-Rudy spammers are secretly McCainiacs?

No, we just want to see Rudy change his positions on guns, gays, abortion. When and if he firmly embraces conservative views on such issues, I will consider his candidacy more favorably.

49 posted on 02/07/2007 12:50:58 PM PST by stillonaroll
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To: NormsRevenge

"Such criticism raises the possibility the former mayor may be attacked on his perceived strength, as 2004 Democratic nominee John Kerry was when his Vietnam War record was called into question."

ROTFLOL!!

Are these people joking. The Vietnam War was NOT KERRY'S STRENGTH! It was his greatest weakness .. and he lied about his service.

I don't recall it ever being said that Rudy lied about what happened on 9/11.


50 posted on 02/07/2007 12:51:32 PM PST by CyberAnt (Drive-By Media: Fake news, fake documents, fake polls)
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