In Israel, orthodox clash over rights

Newsday ^ | February 11, 2007 | SONIA VERMA

[US admirer]

It began as ...she boarded a city bus ...Moments later, an ultra-orthodox man ... started yelling and calling her names ..."morality squads" that patrol Jerusalem's orthodox streets to root out "immodest behavior" ... attacks by "bleach patrols" - groups of ultra-orthodox men who throw bleach ...a recent rabbinical ruling forbids Haredi women from pursuing post-secondary education

[US admirer]

a recent rabbinical ruling forbids Haredi women from pursuing post-secondary education ...dozens of other women have stepped forward complaining of similar abuse. A visiting Canadian woman ...beaten by a fellow passenger. An Israeli woman was forced off a bus in the middle of the night ...because the driver considered her skirt too short. Another ...barred from boarding a bus because she was wearing pants.

Savages. The Jewish taliban

[KantianBurke]

bingo. They're nothing but medival zealots who want to run ones' life. Be prepared however for the flames. There are several who post on FR who don't take kindly to having their big brother side pointed out.

[US admirer]

Hard for them to dispute the facts or justify the actions of these barbarians.

[Richard-SIA]

Zealots of ALL religions SUCK!

Anyone else see the similarity of this particular intolerance to the Muzzie's brand?

Yet they hate each other with an insane passion.

[US admirer]

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

At least two-thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity: idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religous or political ideas. - Aldous Huxley

[MoochPooch]

I'd better put on a flame suit for this one.

I advise anyone to take Naomi Regan with a big grain of salt. I heard her speak once and found her thinking highly distorted. (I wasn't the only one.) She constantly maligns the charedim in her books. She professes to be Orthodox but has no understanding of their mentality.

The man wanting her to move to the rear wasn't considering her an inferior; rather, he felt it was immodest for men & women to sit near or next to each other. That's the Torah, plain & simple. Even the more modern circles appreciate the sense of boundaries.

As an Orthodox Jew myself, I sympathize with the charedim on the one hand. Yet, I know not everyone holds Jewish law the same way and I don't like to see coercive religion.

There are a number of issues here. Should Torah law be applied to public spaces? How is the Jewish character of Israel defined? How strict can Torah law be in a democratic, secular state? How strict should Torah law be, period?

If this were a private (& religious-owned) bus company, or a religious area where a clothing store selling immodest attire would stand out like a sore thumb, the charedim can maybe call the shots. The problem is a general area where not everyone is even Jewish, let alone observant. I don't know to what extent Torah law can be enforced, let alone one group's brand of Judaism.

Nevertheless, the Jewish character of Israel depends on some adherence to Torah. Truly a dilemma.

[US admirer]

No need for a flame suit. At least you are attempting to contemplate how others' rights must be taken onto account. Although I do not agree with it, I would say that a privately held bus line may well be entitled to its rules. On the other hand if a clothing store follows the laws of the land whether it is in close proximity to haredim or not should not matter. The haredi have no right to harass or brutalize those that offend their sensibilities. Let them purchase a large compound and be self sufficient without public tax support and then they can ban miniskirts or bright colors or whatever. As to the wisdom or righteousness of banning females from an education, well it is talibanesque plain and simple. If I had a daughter, no rabbi would deny my kid an education if she wanted it. What kind of religion would mandate such a backward approach to life?

[MoochPooch]

I don't think the Jewish religion is trying to mandate a backward way of life by restricting college or university attendance. The rabbis are concerned about the women's picking up heretical ideas. (Ditto for men.)

I understand their concerns -- especially if someone wants to attend college merely for self-gratification. College is a dangerous place. Someone wanting to be Orthodox will defer to higher authority and arrange his/her priorities accordingly.

However.

The rabbis have to face reality about the struggle to make a living. Also, they have to quit sending mixed messages: if they want women to support their husbands who are in kollel (post-graduate yeshiva), they have to allow these women the chance to generate higher income. If this entails getting an advanced degree, so be it. Otherwise, the rabbis should pay these people $100,000 a year for yeshiva tuition & other expenses.

The rabbis themselves, when trying to marry off their own children, look for families with money, not just Torah learning or character. So I get a tad cynical when they expect others to venerate poverty.

[Ronin]

There's a lot to admire about Israel and I do, but the way they let the those fanatical geeks run rampant is not one of them.

I despise this kind of crap when the Muslims do it -- I despise it just as much when the Jews do it.

Someone needs to plant a boot up their frum backsides and get them to stop this crap.

[US admirer]

Well said.