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‘These are the times that try men’s souls’
The Johnstown Tribune-Democrat ^ | 18 February 2007 | Pedro O. Vega

Posted on 02/18/2007 6:49:58 AM PST by Teófilo

By Pedro O. Vega

As published today in the Johnstown Tribune Democrat

The situation in which we find ourselves in Iraq because of the war on terror defies my attempts at originality to describe.

I find myself in need of laying hold of aphorisms and clichés said by the truly Great Ones, and some not-so-great.

The first one that comes to mind is from Thomas Paine, an American Founding Father, written in 1776. It’s one I used in a previous column, one I keep returning too because of its sheer wisdom: “These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.”

A movement is afoot in Congress to remove funding from military stabilization operations in Iraq. The nonbinding resolution designed to disagree with the president’s military “surge” currently being debated in the House and Senate represents the first step in that direction.

The resolution is mute when it comes to offering an alternate plan ensuring victory and protecting our national interest in the region.

“Summer soldiers” and “sunshine patriots” are intent on prolonging the war on terror for two more generations by hastening a unilateral retreat from Baghdad without giving current operations a chance to work.

Emboldened politicians and pundits now behave as generals, claiming to be masters of the retrograde fighting maneuver and the pursuit of peace.

Another saying comes to mind, this one by that great Pennsylvanian, Benjamin Franklin: “There never was a good war, or a bad peace.”

Not knowing the original context of Franklin’s declaration, I am left to deal with its meaning at face value.

I agree with him that all wars are bad, but it goes without saying that some are worse than others. On occasion, there’s such a thing as a “bad peace” if this “peace” becomes a cover for defeat, humiliation and eventual surrender to the will of the enemy.

Franklin’s actions in the field of diplomacy belied his own assertion. Once converted to the patriot’s cause, Franklin ensured that the nascent United States had enough weapons to win the war. His diplomatic skills doubled the size of the country at the end of the revolution, at the expense of the British.

If aversion to war and love of peace ever moved Franklin to appease the British, he never showed it.

Thomas Friedman is credited for coining the “Pottery Barn rule” of foreign policy. That is: “You break it, you own it.”

This is what Colin Powell, retired Army general and then secretary of state, told President Bush before the start of the war in Iraq.

Events are about to disprove the logic of this common-sense assertion. We went into Iraq and broke the status quo there, and now our armchair generals want us to retreat without fulfilling our responsibilities, despite an already dreadful investment in American lives and treasure.

We want to walk away; we don’t want to own the situation. But the fact is that we do.

Neville Chamberlain returned from the Munich Conference in 1938, waving a piece of paper signed by Adolf Hitler and saying, “My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British prime minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time.”

Winston Churchill wryly replied, “You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war.”

Many Chamberlains run around today in the guise of politicians and pundits, waving papers and declaring “peace for our time.”

Their views might even prevail and become both law and accepted wisdom. But by choosing peace over dishonor, they will ensure the coming of even more war.

Sadly, summer soldiers, sunshine patriots and enlightened pundits alone are not going to bear the bitter consequences of failure in Iraq. They will befall all of us, our children and our children’s children.

One more aphorism is in order. George Santayana once said: “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

As we get ready to abandon Iraq, we’re about to relearn this lesson in spades. Truly, these are the times that try men’s souls.


TOPICS: Editorial; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: chamberlain; churchill; corruption; cutandrunls; fourblogs; iraqbackstabbers; johnmurtha; johnpmurtha; lbackstabbers; losertarians; murtha; myblog; pimping; pimpingfourblogs; pimpinmyblog; pimpinmyblogs
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This is my latest Op-Ed. Feel free to discuss it here or at my blog, The Conemaugh Valley Times.
1 posted on 02/18/2007 6:50:01 AM PST by Teófilo
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To: Teófilo

I'm just as determined to see US win as those are that want us to fail. I just hope I'm not the minority.


2 posted on 02/18/2007 6:54:39 AM PST by flynmudd (Proud Navy Mom to OSSA Blalock-DDG 61)
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To: Teófilo; flynmudd; ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Cicero; GarySpFc; Wolfie; ...
Winston Churchill wryly replied, "You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war."

Winston Churchill was an expert on Iraq. He was involved in creating it and he was involved in fighting the insurgency in Iraq.

3 posted on 02/18/2007 7:10:10 AM PST by A. Pole (Winston Churchill: "I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes")
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To: Teófilo

Nations were established for believers as well as unbelievers.

As Christians, we are faced by two major threats. First a threat from within our own nation which reduces belief in God through faith in Christ as a mere comparative form of religion, relegating national governance to good works of men independent of faith through Christ (and those human good workers themselves are in conflict amongst themselves as evidenced by the recent congressional vote). Such thinking is disobedient to His Will and merely provokes Divine Discipline upon our nation.

The second threat is from antichristian foreign nations which seek to attack anything Christian.

Those who seek to mold the world by human good, independent of Divine Good, have redirected our military overseas, while others domestically continually seek to erode national unity.

IMHO, we are becoming ripe for a third party intervention to which we have become remarkably unstable to resist, nationally, believer and unbeliever alike.


4 posted on 02/18/2007 7:29:14 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable; Stress is optional through faith in Christ.)
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To: Teófilo
Sunday, November 12, 2006

In the end, Jack Murtha got my vote

By Pedro O. Vega AKA TEOFILO

As published today in The Johnstown Tribune-Democrat.

I voted to re-elect John Murtha to Congress. It was not an easy decision and my support comes with strings attached. Let me share with you how I reached that decision, and what my expectations are now.

You got what you voted for. Get the F8ck out of here you stinking crat.

5 posted on 02/18/2007 8:49:03 AM PST by metalurgist ("For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?" No to Rudy)
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To: All; Teófilo; flynmudd; Calpernia; ExTexasRedhead

.

NEVER FORGET


Another Democrat Congress' cutting off all our funding for a then Free South Vietnam's Military to fight for its own Freedom with against heavily Soviet-backed Communist invaders from the North =


Pictures of a vietnamese Re-Education (SLAVE LABOR) Camp

http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1308949/posts


What price for us to now pay, I wonder..?

With our own Freedom being attacked by Islamic Fundamentalist Extremists who know they have an oil rich 100 year window to take us all over, like they failed to do in the 7th Century A.D.


NEVER FORGET

.


6 posted on 02/18/2007 9:07:23 AM PST by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: Teófilo
After watching the shenanigans of Congress this last week, I am moved to think of

Now is the winter of our discontent.

7 posted on 02/18/2007 9:09:21 AM PST by Rummyfan (Iraq: it's not about Iraq anymore, it's about the USA!)
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To: Teófilo

"summer soldiers, sunshine patriots"

Rings a bell....


8 posted on 02/18/2007 9:11:30 AM PST by dakine
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To: dakine

Murtha is a summer soldier, Kerry was a winter soldier.


9 posted on 02/18/2007 9:21:59 AM PST by Sender ("Great powers should never get involved in the politics of small tribes.")
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To: Teófilo

Benjamin Franklin: “There never was a good war, or a bad peace.”
--
Munich,1938: "Peace in our time"


I'll give Ben a pass on that quote sinc he was such a great man.


10 posted on 02/18/2007 10:38:04 AM PST by Finalapproach29er (Dems will impeach Bush if given a chance.)
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To: Teófilo
This all should sound very familiar.

For most of his tenure in office, Lincoln was an unpopular president. There were two main oppositional factions: Confederate sympathizers in the Border States and lower Midwest, and the peace wing of the Democratic Party. The latter group believed that the Civil War was undermining the Northern economy, civil liberties, and states’ rights. Particularly objectionable to Northern Democrats were two Lincoln administration policies: emancipation and the military draft......

The Democrats, on the other hand, were energized by what they saw as the morass of a stagnant Union war effort: death, debt, and destruction with no end in sight. Furthermore, several of Lincoln’s key policies were extremely unpopular: emancipation, the military draft, the use of black troops, and violations of civil liberties. Democrats also benefited when the president’s outline of preconditions for peace negotiations, in his “To Whom It May Concern” letter of July 1864, included the stipulation that the Confederate states abolish slavery. Frederick Douglass had to convince Lincoln not to backpedal on that forward-looking stance, and the president did stand firm, even though it undercut his support among War Democrats and conservative Republicans. Democrats played the race card for all its worth, insisting that the Republicans were upending traditional race relations and advocating “miscegenation”—a word for racially-mixed marriage allegedly coined during the campaign.

The Democratic National Convention met in Chicago in late August 1864, when Union military prospects appeared dim. That circumstance strengthened the Peace wing of the Democratic Party, led by Clement Vallandigham, a former congressman from Ohio, and Fernando Wood, a congressman and former mayor from New York City. Their proposals for a cease-fire and negotiated settlement with the Confederacy were ratified by the delegates and incorporated into the official party platform. Confusing the issue, though, the Democrats overwhelmingly chose General George B. McClellan, a War Democrat, as their presidential nominee over two peace candidates, Governor Horatio Seymour of New York and former Governor Thomas Seymour of Connecticut.

McClellan was the controversial former general-in-chief of the Union army, praised as an superb trainer of raw recruits, beloved by his men as the dashing “Young Napoleon,” yet much criticized for his hesitancy, which some characterized as cowardice, in committing his troops to battle, particularly at the Second Battle of Bull Run and Lee’s retreat after Antietam. U.S. Representative George Pendleton of Ohio, a Peace Democrat, was selected as the vice-presidential nominee after former treasury secretary James Guthrie of Kentucky, the leader on the first ballot, withdrew.

http://elections.harpweek.com/1864/Overview-1864-2.htm

11 posted on 02/18/2007 10:52:09 AM PST by mware (By all that you hold dear.. on this good earth... I bid you stand! Men of the West!)
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To: Finalapproach29er; ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Cicero; GarySpFc; Wolfie; ...
Munich,1938: "Peace in our time"

All this Munich talk is a nonsense. First: what should have been done in 1938? Poland and France were to stage attack on Germany? (USA and UK had no such capacity at that time.)

Second: in 1930's the greatest danger was Communism, which with great bloody effort was defeated in Spain (with the help of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy). People in 1930's did not have benefit of "clairvoyance" supposedly enjoyed by us today.

We cannot predict the future by using Munich analogy. The only conclusion we can draw is that as it was a mistake in 1930 to see Communism as the key threat so we might be mistaken the same way by thinking that we know what are the key future problems. WE DON'T!

The same people who today invoke Munich as the example of error, in 1930's would be calling for crusade against Soviet Union and would be allying themselves with Hitler and Mussolini (as they did in Spain what turned out to be not so bad).

12 posted on 02/18/2007 11:04:32 AM PST by A. Pole (Rumsfeld:"In politics, every day is filled with numerous opportunities for serious error. Enjoy it.")
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To: A. Pole

There is enough history to read to see the handwriting on the walls. Evil is brewing all over the world in the form of Islamic terrorists. The only ones that have not learned from history and cannot read the handwriting on the walls are Liberals and RINO's.


13 posted on 02/18/2007 11:20:25 AM PST by ExTexasRedhead
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To: mware

Man, does that sound familiar.


14 posted on 02/18/2007 11:21:56 AM PST by Sender ("Great powers should never get involved in the politics of small tribes.")
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To: ExTexasRedhead
There is enough history to read to see the handwriting on the walls.

Even when God Himself writes on the wall, only a few of inspired men can understand it.

The past analogies are useful but can be deceptive. In 1930s the OBVIOUS (to those on the conservative side) threat was Communism. Fascism/Nazism was seen as a main threat by the Communists and not by all of them.

And there was no real alternatives to Munich in 1938, sorry.

15 posted on 02/18/2007 11:29:04 AM PST by A. Pole (Rumsfeld:"In politics, every day is filled with numerous opportunities for serious error. Enjoy it.")
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To: metalurgist
You got what you voted for. Get the F8ck out of here you stinking crat.

Unlike you, I can explain myself, defend my choices, and take responsibility for them.

I am not going anywhere. Perhaps, you should consider going back to school and take a course in rhetoric, or at the very least, in respect to others.

-Theo

16 posted on 02/18/2007 12:46:47 PM PST by Teófilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: A. Pole

Yes, Mr. Chamberlain. lol

Seriously, you may be part right- but Hitler came back from Munich emboldened by the pussy attitude he saw.


17 posted on 02/18/2007 12:58:04 PM PST by Finalapproach29er (Dems will impeach Bush if given a chance.)
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To: Finalapproach29er; sergey1973; RusIvan; G. Stolyarov II; Romanov; annalex; Kolokotronis; Teófilo; ..
but Hitler came back from Munich emboldened by the pussy attitude he saw.

Perhaps, but UK had no other cards to play at that time. And as Machiavelli said: "a republic or a prince ought to feign to do through liberality, that which necessity constrains them". In Munich Hitler was granted what he would get anyway - Sudetenland.

Untimely resistance is not a sign of strength. Russia was humoring Napoleon before he attacked her. Soviet Russia was accommodating Hitler before 1941. In both cases Russia won.

In 1914 when Russia stood her ground against Austria and Germany who bullied small Serbia - it led to the disaster. If Tsar Nicholas II were a more crafty man, he would abandon Serbs for a while. Both Serbs and Russians would benefit from such stance.

If you worry about Islamism there are some things one could do with little expense - like limiting Muslim immigration, pressuring for reciprocity in religious tolerance - let Saudis and Turks allow churches be built on their land and protect converts, differentiating between expansive forms of Islam and not expansive ones (example for the first radical Sunni, for the second traditional Shia, see the map of expansion over centuries).

18 posted on 02/18/2007 1:45:10 PM PST by A. Pole (Serbian proverb: "Bog visoko, a Rusija daleko." [God is high above, and Russia is far away.])
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To: A. Pole
If you worry about Islamism there are some things one could do with little expense - like limiting Muslim immigration, pressuring for reciprocity in religious tolerance - let Saudis and Turks allow churches be built on their land and protect converts, differentiating between expansive forms of Islam and not expansive ones (example for the first radical Sunni, for the second traditional Shia, see the map of expansion over centuries).

My thoughts exactly! Hear hear!

-Theo

19 posted on 02/18/2007 3:56:57 PM PST by Teófilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: A. Pole; bornacatholic
In arguing against the United States and what is left of the West descending into Euroweenie cowardice in the face of our enemies, analogies to the feckless stupidity and cowardice of Neville Chamberlain and his ilk are always in order. We do not need to repeat the Pollyanna performance of the despicable Chamberlain. If the last experience with cowardice and pacifist delusion as foreign policy were not enough, what will be?

Conservatism no longer has room for those who, like Chamberlain, substitute "peace at any price" for actual policy and for national defense. If Islamofascism wants to wage war against us (it was in all the papers), then war it shall be with as much Islamobloodshed as necessary to discourage and demoralize the Islamolunatics once and for all.

As to communism, we ought not to have "recognized" as legitimate the soviet regime as FDR did. We ought to have sent a lot more than an American/English/Czech (?) "Expeditionary Force" in the immediate aftermath of WWI. Our troops were already in Europe and should have had the opportunity with full backing from pondscum like Wilson to strangle the soviet regime in its cradle. It would have saved us Korea, Vietnam, and very possibly WW II BUT, like PJB foolishly opines today, the war that is postponed (until the enemy is strategically equipped for war) is preferable to the war fought and won NOW when the enemy is weak. When we got one war behind by tolerating the USSR, we were then forced to choose reds or nazis when we could have next joined with a free Russia to crush the Germans. Liberals on the left and counterfeit conservatives (Chamberlain types) on the right set the stage for that choice. I would take Franco over most 20th century leaders. Just how was either Germany or Italy instrumental in the victory of Franco Spain over communism? If so, it was for their own purposes and certainly not for Spanish freedom from the reds and anarchists. See Warren Carroll's The Last Crusade.

Had we crushed communism in its soviet cradle, Eastern European nations would likely have escaped soviet domination because without a soviet union there would have been no Iron Curtain.

We are coming up on having to choose between red China and the Islamofascisti, another choice beloved of the Clinton left and the Chamberlainite phonycons.

Our safety lies not in imagining ourselves just another country no better and no worse than North Korea, Iran, Syria, etc., or to imagine our way of life no more entitled to prevail than Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda, or other Sharia lunatics. If they want to run their infernal pestholes according to their lunacy, that MAY be tolerable. When they decide that they are re-establishing a caliphate over all formerly Muslim geography (including Spain) and convert at the point of a sword and govern by Sharia, then there may well no be room on this planet for the US and for the Islamofascisti, then there will be room for us and not for them. Instead of our wringing our hands and weeping and wailing over what the Islamolunatics may think of us, let them worry about what we think lf them and, more importantly, what we are prepared to do about it.

Israel is not the Sudetenland and it is not going go be turned over by Chamberlainesque cowards, at least not with actually conservative applause. If the Islamofascisti imagine that blowing up school buses filled with Chassidic Orthodox grammar school children is a legitimate military tactic and that homicide/suicide bombing is the pathway to heaven and 72 virgins (who hopefully closely resemble Helen Thomas and Madeleine Notsobright), we should employ our superior technology to make the search for heaven and 72 virgins much, much more efficient, at least at the earthly end. Else, why did God invent Electric Boat and its missile submarines. We do NOT have to take their guff, much less their homicidal passions.

The conservative movement (what some people without a sense of history call "neo-conservatism") does not exist to turn over the world to our enemies on the installment plan. We are no longer (if we ever were) a movement characterized by isolationism. We are not a movement of internationalism. We are a movement of interventionism, effective intervention imposing unacceptable pain on enemies who strike at us or our allies. Robert Taft the Elder is not a model for conservatism. Religiously a Unitarian (as nearly none of us are), politically somewhat libertarian (as a minority of us are), foreign policy-wise (until Pearl Harbor) an enabler by delay of America's enemies counseling that we not stir them up while they armed to fight us in a four-year war for us and longer for others.

Barry Goldwater forfeited, by his enthusiasm for abortion and homosexual "rights" any claim to leadership as well. In the 1960s and 1970s, the New Right (not neo-conservatives but young people not superannuated ex-socialists but dedicated rightists) formulated interventionist foreign policy for a principled nation. We aren't going to go back to Chamberlainism.

If you don't like the analogy to Chamberlain, then chew on Cain as the ultimate paleocon trying to convince God by saying: "I am not my brother's keeper" for that is the essence of paleo foreign policy.

No sale. Now or ever.

20 posted on 02/18/2007 5:37:37 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk
As to communism, we ought not to have "recognized" as legitimate the soviet regime as FDR did. We ought to have sent a lot more than an American/English/Czech (?) "Expeditionary Force" in the immediate aftermath of WWI. Our troops were already in Europe and should have had the opportunity with full backing from pondscum like Wilson to strangle the soviet regime in its cradle.

Hmm, do you believe that American people in 1918 were ready for the war in the vast steppes of Eurasia? How many millions of soldiers could be sent for this purpose? How the logistical problems would be solved? What justification could be provided AT THAT TIME (without the hindsight derived from Solzhenitsyn)?

Do you know the future? Do you know from which direction new dangers will come ten years from now?

21 posted on 02/18/2007 6:13:26 PM PST by A. Pole (O, I wish I was in Dixie! Hooray! Hooray! In Dixie Land I'll take my stand. To live and die in Dixie)
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To: BlackElk
If you don't like the analogy to Chamberlain, then chew on Cain as the ultimate paleocon trying to convince God by saying: "I am not my brother's keeper" for that is the essence of paleo foreign policy.

Did you read story about Cain and Abel? It was not about Cain refusing to look after his brother. Cain paid too much attention to his brother, so much that he murdered him out of jealousy.

22 posted on 02/18/2007 6:20:22 PM PST by A. Pole (O, I wish I was in Dixie! Hooray! Hooray! In Dixie Land I'll take my stand. To live and die in Dixie)
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To: A. Pole; bornacatholic
I believe in a militantly interventionist, unilateral (other nations are welcome to join us but NOT dictate to us) foreign policy. It required no foresight to understand the ideological lineage of soviet communism, aka Marxism-Leninism. We ought to have strangled them in their cribs. Likewise Mao, Likewise Hitler. There are many means but military ones are quite acceptable against such enemies.

Respectfully, you and I have deep disagreements. That is because you very much disagree with anything cognizable as the conservative movement. Paleo conservatism is the ideology of the old Eurodiployakkers who wept over the demise of their way of life when WWI broke out. Secret covenants secretly arrived at created the spaghetti bowl of interlocking commitments without which WW I would never have been possible but, never mind....

Blood and soilism is NOT conservatism. Bismarck was NOT a conservative. Neither is the Rockford Institute, Chuck Hagel, Weepy Walter Jones, antiwar.com, Justin(e) Raimondo, or paleoPatrick on matters of foreign and military policy.

Leadership has the obligation, ummm, to lead. That's why they call it.... The US troops were already in Europe (bear in mind Patton's views on the similar situation at the end of WWII). Some were closing in on Ekaterinberg when the Romanovs were massacred. That Lenin died in bed is a moral indictment of Wilson. In 1918, there were capable green and white armies in the field attacking the red and deserving of our assistance.

What justification?????? Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky were Marxist-Leninists who murdered their way to control of a major nation with massive resources. No more justification necessary.

Do I know the future? As Richard Weaver wrote: Ideas have consequences. The soviet idea had obvious consequences to come that needed preventive war.

BTW, Cain killed Abel and then whined that he was not his brother's keeper. Paleos and other foreign policy liberals and wimps NEVER want to assert their moral obligations by way of action in defense of their brothers. It was Cain's way of saying: "Don't blame Cain, Cain is a paleo who was minding his own business."

I do not know from what direction new dangers may arise. That is no excuse for paralysis. As Ted the Swimmer might say (another Cain lookalike), we will cross that bridge when we come to it. We should also remember that an undue adherence to consistency is the hobgoblin of....

23 posted on 02/18/2007 7:28:58 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: A. Pole; bornacatholic
I believe in a militantly interventionist, unilateral (other nations are welcome to join us but NOT dictate to us) foreign policy. It required no foresight to understand the ideological lineage of soviet communism, aka Marxism-Leninism. We ought to have strangled them in their cribs. Likewise Mao, Likewise Hitler. There are many means but military ones are quite acceptable against such enemies.

Respectfully, you and I have deep disagreements. That is because you very much disagree with anything cognizable as the conservative movement. Paleo conservatism is the ideology of the old Eurodiployakkers who wept over the demise of their way of life when WWI broke out. Secret covenants secretly arrived at created the spaghetti bowl of interlocking commitments without which WW I would never have been possible but, never mind....

Blood and soilism is NOT conservatism. Bismarck was NOT a conservative. Neither is the Rockford Institute, Chuck Hagel, Weepy Walter Jones, antiwar.com, Justin(e) Raimondo, or paleoPatrick on matters of foreign and military policy.

Leadership has the obligation, ummm, to lead. That's why they call it.... The US troops were already in Europe (bear in mind Patton's views on the similar situation at the end of WWII). Some were closing in on Ekaterinberg when the Romanovs were massacred. That Lenin died in bed is a moral indictment of Wilson. In 1918, there were capable green and white armies in the field attacking the red and deserving of our assistance.

What justification?????? Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky were Marxist-Leninists who murdered their way to control of a major nation with massive resources. No more justification necessary.

Do I know the future? As Richard Weaver wrote: Ideas have consequences. The soviet idea had obvious consequences to come that needed preventive war.

BTW, Cain killed Abel and then whined that he was not his brother's keeper. Paleos and other foreign policy liberals and wimps NEVER want to assert their moral obligations by way of action in defense of their brothers. It was Cain's way of saying: "Don't blame Cain, Cain is a paleo who was minding his own business."

I do not know from what direction new dangers may arise. That is no excuse for paralysis. As Ted the Swimmer might say (another Cain lookalike), we will cross that bridge when we come to it. We should also remember that an undue adherence to consistency is the hobgoblin of....

24 posted on 02/18/2007 7:29:32 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk

Your optimism is very fervent.


25 posted on 02/18/2007 7:41:46 PM PST by A. Pole (Oh, I wish I was in Dixie! Hooray! Hooray! In Dixie Land I'll take my stand.To live and die in Dixie)
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To: Teófilo
I don't respect stinking crats and I especially don't respect ones that support a slimey POS like Murtha.

ESAD!

26 posted on 02/18/2007 8:16:53 PM PST by metalurgist ("For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?" No to Rudy)
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To: Teófilo; Grampa Dave; ASA Vet; george76

Cliches.....no more.....ping


27 posted on 02/18/2007 8:23:36 PM PST by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
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To: BIGLOOK
Cliches.....no more.....ping

Don't...worry...I..reached...the bottom of the barrel!

-Theo

28 posted on 02/18/2007 9:11:02 PM PST by Teófilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: BIGLOOK; Teófilo

Last June, the Los Angeles Times reported how the ranking member on the defense appropriations subcommittee has a brother, Robert Murtha, whose lobbying firm represents 10 companies that received more than $20 million from last year's defense spending bill.

"Clients of the lobbying firm KSA Consulting -- whose top officials also include former congressional aide Carmen V. Scialabba, who worked for Rep. Murtha as a congressional aide for 27 years -- received a total of $20.8 million from the bill," the L.A. Times reported.

In early 2004, according to Roll Call, Mr. Murtha "reportedly leaned on U.S. Navy officials to sign a contract to transfer the Hunters Point Shipyard to the city of San Francisco."

Laurence Pelosi, nephew of House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, at the time was an executive of the company which owned the rights to the land.

The same article also reported how Mr. Murtha has been behind millions of dollars worth of earmarks in defense appropriations bills that went to companies owned by the children of fellow Pennsylvania Democrat, Rep. Paul Kanjorski.

Meanwhile, the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan campaign-finance watchdog group, lists Mr. Murtha as the top recipient of defense industry dollars in the current 2006 election cycle.

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060620-083859-8753r.htm



29 posted on 02/18/2007 9:12:50 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: smoothsailing; Just A Nobody; freema

" November 12, 2006

In the end, Jack Murtha got my vote

By Pedro O. Vega AKA TEOFILO

As published today in The Johnstown Tribune-Democrat."


30 posted on 02/18/2007 9:16:25 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: smoothsailing; jazusamo; ALOHA RONNIE

smoothsailing : can we use this ?

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r320/smoothsailing_02/Jihad_Against_TroopSurge.jpg


31 posted on 02/18/2007 9:20:50 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Teófilo
False history gets made all day, any day, the truth of the new is never on the news.

Adrienne Rich


Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

George Santayana

Truthfully, you ringed the barrel, Theo. Well done!
32 posted on 02/18/2007 9:25:24 PM PST by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
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To: george76
It's OK by me, I found it on a blog website, fair game as far as I know. Just upload it to your own server so it doesn't eat my photobucket bandwidth.
33 posted on 02/18/2007 9:25:41 PM PST by smoothsailing
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To: smoothsailing

Did you note the Murtha supporter and voter here ?



34 posted on 02/18/2007 9:29:48 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76; smoothsailing; Just A Nobody; freema
Yes, I wrote that piece. Let's read the whole thing, which you may find below.

I still stand by what I said then and by my actions. Now, what if Mr. Murtha proves me wrong? Well, in that case, there's always the next election, and my next ballot my look different.

I am generally conservative, but I am not a Lemming. I will not follow crowds or succumb to ideological peer pressure. I will not vote on a single issue other than pro-Life. I'll vote based upon the big picture.

You may agree with me, disagree with me, etc., but this is the nature of the beast. I followed my conscience. You disagree? Fine. Follow your own.

Like Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that." =================

In the end, Jack Murtha got my vote

BY PEDRO O. VEGA

I voted to re-elect John Murtha to Congress. It was not an easy decision and my support comes with strings attached. Let me share with you how I reached that decision, and what my expectations are now.

Diana Irey came as close as anyone in the past 32 years to defeating Murtha. She did take one-third of the ballots, and that’s respectable. But it soon became obvious to me that the GOP gave her only token support. The party wrote her off as unelectable.

Then, there were the errors in Irey’s campaign. Although lucid and telegenic, Irey was unable to articulate what she would do differently from Murtha in the district.

Also, although Irey expressed many of the same objections and fears I had about Murtha’s “redeployment” plan from Iraq, she failed to explain how she would increase congressionally mandated accountability in the war and rein in runaway spending.

In the end, Irey’s message sounded shallow and one-dimensional.

Murtha also did something that took me by surprise and made me rethink my support of his candidacy: He reacted to my Oct. 8 column (“This voter is yearning for the Murtha of old”) and sent me a personal letter, along with an information package detailing his positions.

I think he sensed that I expressed the misgivings of a section of the electorate who had been his unconditional supporters, but who were skeptical of his Iraq War stance.

The fact that he took the time to explain himself to me increased my estimation of him and, although I was not entitled to any explanations from Irey’s camp, I half-expected a similar note and explanations from her addressing my misgivings regarding her candidacy.

None came.

Lest anyone think that I felt so flattered by Murtha’s attention that I voted for him, let me say that I wasn’t. I read all of his material and, aside from a very sobering assessment of the critical state of the Army – and that’s an argument that I can readily understand – none of the other writings and transcripts he provided really addressed the issue of how a unilateral, unconditional retreat from Iraq would serve our long-term national interest.

Is an Islamic Republic of Iraq in our national interest? Will the countries in the Middle East be happy to receive a flood of refugees from a massive civil war? Would Iran and the Iraqi Shiites form a political union? Will they then be able to control the price of oil in a whim?

Would other countries in the region then follow their lead? Will an assertive, imperial Iran be in a position to challenge the United States and the West militarily and economically? Will Iran bet on American weakness and lack of credibility to impose its will upon us?

Do Murtha and the Demo-cratic Party leadership believe that a unilateral retreat would hold no such lasting consequences?

Doesn’t Murtha even ask himself these questions?

So why did I vote for him?

Look. Irey’s momentum fizzled early in the race. But even if she had been elected, she would have had very little influence in Congress, while Murtha appeared to be heading to a senior leadership position from which he would be able to influence both the prosecution of the war and our region’s recovery.

I reasoned, too, that, if I caught his attention once, I may be able to catch it again and perhaps influence him through respectful reason and dialogue, as I had been trying to do.

It seemed to me that my own credibility to ask him the tough questions would be enhanced if I could speak to him as a supporter rather than as an adversary.

Thus, I voted for him.

My vote also represents an act of faith in Murtha as a person. I fully expect that he will moderate his opposition to the Iraq War by working with President Bush on a solution that tends both to the welfare of our troops and to our long-term interest in the Middle East.

I expect Murtha to enhance our ability and power to face down Islamic fascism and terrorism worldwide, and not to undermine our credibility by even giving the impression that we are “cutting and running.”

And please, no more photo-ops and flesh-pressing with the Code Pinkers. OK?

Mr. Murtha, I gave you my vote. Now, I’ll have to hold you accountable. I trust you want to do the right thing.

But when and if I perceive that you are not, I’ll be here to remind you of the fact.

Congratulations, sir, on your re-election to Congress.

35 posted on 02/18/2007 9:30:38 PM PST by Teófilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: BIGLOOK
Truthfully, you ringed the barrel, Theo. Well done!

Thank you, I appreciate it. I call 'em the way I see 'em, with the lights God gave me.

-Theo

36 posted on 02/18/2007 9:32:37 PM PST by Teófilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: george76
More evidence that Murtha is in public service for the public's money.

What experience and history teach is this -- that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles.

G.W.Hegel
37 posted on 02/18/2007 9:39:12 PM PST by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
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To: metalurgist
I don't respect stinking crats and I especially don't respect ones that support a slimey POS like Murtha.

Obviously, you did not read the original piece and are slamming me out of anger and prejudice. So be it. I am done with you.

-Theo

38 posted on 02/18/2007 9:39:26 PM PST by Teófilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: george76
Did you note the Murtha supporter and voter here ?

Yes I did.

79,612 voters in the 12th Congessional District voted for Diana Irey, roughly 40% of votes cast.

Those 79,612 voters need not justify their vote to me. I'm proud to be in their company.

39 posted on 02/18/2007 9:43:25 PM PST by smoothsailing
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To: BIGLOOK

There are many examples of Murtha helping himself at the expenses of the taxpayers.

Lots of money was 'liberated' for his personal benefit and for the benefit of his friends and family.

If a republican did a fraction of what Murtha did, they would be in prison.

and the media helps cover it up by not reporting it aggressively...if at all.





40 posted on 02/18/2007 9:47:47 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Teófilo
I can explain myself, defend my choices,

There is NO explanation for selling out the country and my troops.
There is NO defense of the indefensible.

41 posted on 02/18/2007 10:02:05 PM PST by Just A Nobody (I - LOVE - my attitude problem! NEVER AGAIN...Support our Troops! Beware the ENEMEDIA)
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To: george76

Thanks for the ping George!

Tonight must be my lucky night. Have you seen this piece of garbage? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1787162/posts

No more nice guy for me...I hate them all!


42 posted on 02/18/2007 10:05:14 PM PST by Just A Nobody (I - LOVE - my attitude problem! NEVER AGAIN...Support our Troops! Beware the ENEMEDIA)
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To: Teófilo
In Pennsylvania, Murtha may be popular and respectable since he's in DC and you're at home, a respectable distance away. Though I agreed with your thread, I find it impossible to agree with your vote for Murtha. Diana Irey's campaign was clearly in an opposite direction from Murtha's position and should have succeeded on merits of her support of the troops and their mission in Iraq and elsewhere. Just because you're content with a pork provider isn't sufficient reason to ignore Murtha's overall subversive performance in Congress regarding the troops and our present conflicts.

Rethink your vote.
43 posted on 02/18/2007 10:05:27 PM PST by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
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To: george76
and the media helps cover it up by not reporting it aggressively...if at all.

And they VOTE for him!

44 posted on 02/18/2007 10:06:39 PM PST by Just A Nobody (I - LOVE - my attitude problem! NEVER AGAIN...Support our Troops! Beware the ENEMEDIA)
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To: george76
Seems to be the M.O. of the club; Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy, Kerry, Kennedy again and of course the party girl of record breaking favors, Hillary. Pardon me!
45 posted on 02/18/2007 10:14:40 PM PST by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
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To: potlatch

46 posted on 02/18/2007 10:18:28 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Just A Nobody; freema; Unrepentant VN Vet; Myrddin

Murtha's next step apparently is to try to deny training, equipment...to the soldiers, airmen, marines...in the field and to those who may be headed into harms way.

He will fail, but it is nice of him to try...

/s





47 posted on 02/18/2007 10:24:03 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: devolve; george76
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered

And our text books are already being altered! I always liked that whole quote by Thomas Paine.

Appropriate cartoon george, thank you.

48 posted on 02/18/2007 10:24:33 PM PST by potlatch (Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
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To: Teófilo; george76; smoothsailing; Just A Nobody; freema
there's always the next election
Don't count on it! The commies have been in session less than 7 weeks and have already put us in grave danger.

I am not a Lemming
OK, how about a kool-aid drinking quisling?

sent me a personal letter, along with an information package detailing his positions.
Any cash in that info package?

I was not entitled to any explanations from Irey’s camp, I half-expected a similar note and explanations from her addressing my misgivings regarding her candidacy.
None came.

Geeez, if I had known all it would take is a "personal" note from Diana to get your vote I would have penned one for her to sign and send to you.

But it soon became obvious to me that the GOP gave her only token NO support. The party wrote her off... BECAUSE THE PA "PARTY" CHAIRMAN, ROBERT GLEASON, JR, IS IN BED WITH al murthawi!

In the end, Irey’s message sounded shallow and one-dimensional.
Oh, I see...you are deaf. I'm sorry.

She did take one-third of the ballots
Now I see why you chose to writing as your life's work.
Math is not your forte. 1/3 does not = 40%

49 posted on 02/18/2007 10:24:42 PM PST by Just A Nobody (I - LOVE - my attitude problem! NEVER AGAIN...Support our Troops! Beware the ENEMEDIA)
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To: Just A Nobody
Thanks..." this piece of garbage..."

at least Murtha is likely skimming lots of money for himself.


/s
50 posted on 02/18/2007 10:27:16 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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