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The Full Rudy: The Man, the Mayor, the Myth
The Nation ^ | 05/30/2002 | Jack Newfield

Posted on 03/23/2007 6:41:15 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

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To: zarf

Dear zarf,

I hope he doesn't become president. I certainly will not vote for him. I don't think he is fit to be President of the United States.

But I thought he was a pretty good mayor.


sitetest


41 posted on 03/23/2007 7:26:07 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Ultra Sonic 007
Sounds like the lib's are really frightened about Rudy. we had best read this garbage because this is the crap they and the friends in the MSM are going to be throwing nest year in the fall campaign.
42 posted on 03/23/2007 7:29:48 AM PDT by bilhosty (to hell with ABCNNBCBS)
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To: sitetest
The question is:

Will you vote for him against Hillary if it comes to that choice?

43 posted on 03/23/2007 7:30:55 AM PDT by zarf (Her hair was of a dank yellow, and fell over her temples like sauerkraut......)
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To: zarf
I would give Giuliani at least a B+ for his work as mayor of New York City. Unfortunately for him, a large part of this is based on my view of New York as a foreign city -- not an American one.

As a presidential candidate, I'd give him an F.

Yes, that makes him marginally better than Hillary Clinton, but that's only because I'd give her an F-.

44 posted on 03/23/2007 7:32:17 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: Ultra Sonic 007
"Katrina vander Heuvel..I have honestly never heard of this woman. I looked at the Nation's front page, saw liberal ads, and assumed it was a Left-leaning publication."

She's left of left. You'll see her on TV I'm sure as a guess political analyst. If Rudy's ex's equaled 1/10th of Katrina vander Heuval, no one here on FR would fault him for his actions.
45 posted on 03/23/2007 7:32:48 AM PDT by Gop1040
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To: bilhosty
Believe me, if you wanted to vote for the guy the media despise the most...Giuliani will win hands down.

They hate him because he is ruthless. He will not suffer fools; leaker's or insubordination and he will strong arm those in his way.....including the teachers unions.

46 posted on 03/23/2007 7:33:10 AM PDT by zarf (Her hair was of a dank yellow, and fell over her temples like sauerkraut......)
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To: zarf
The record shows that Giuliani was less effective at solving problems in which such efforts require cooperation with other levels of government, labor unions or communities of color..

I stopped right there

Hillary won't, the mainstream media won't. You need to be able to answer the critics, not ignore them.

47 posted on 03/23/2007 7:35:43 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: zarf
Dear zarf,

"Will you vote for him against Hillary if it comes to that choice?"

No.

For social conservatives, if it comes down to Giuliani vs. Clinton, we will have already lost the election. As a social conservative, I believe that if either of these people becomes president, the country will have lost grievously.

We'll have to figure out where we go from there, but helping a liberal Republican win the presidency will alter the course of the Republican Party for the worse for a long time to come.

If the house (the country) is on fire, no use burning down the firehouse (the Republican Party).


sitetest
48 posted on 03/23/2007 7:38:17 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: trisham
OK. Let' see...

As a result, Giuliani's popularity plummeted again in the spring of 2000. He was almost a laughingstock when he withdrew from his Senate campaign against Hillary Clinton. The official reason given was the Mayor's diagnosis of prostate cancer, but even conservative writers like William Safire in the New York Times and Robert Bartley in the Wall Street Journal had urged him not to run in pointed columns focused on his chaotic personal life. In May 2000 Giuliani looked like a control freak who had lost control of himself.

There are no "facts" to dispute here. Only insults and slander.

Rudy was not a "laughingstock" when he withdrew from the race. He was a man fighting cancer, and most people understood that. The Nation may consider prostate cancer an "excuse" that was given, but that Rudy did have prostate cancer cannot be disputed, and he did undergo treatment. What "fact" has The Nation put forth in this excerpt??

That Rudy "looked like a control freak who had lost control of himself" is an opinion, not a fact. That William Safire advised him not to run is a fact, but what does that prove, except that Safire had an opinion.

Where's the beef?? :)

49 posted on 03/23/2007 7:38:24 AM PDT by veronica ('My 80% ally is not my 20% enemy.' ........Rudy reminds us what Ronald Reagan said.)
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To: veronica

Sorry, that's not a refutation of the article. :)


50 posted on 03/23/2007 7:40:34 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: sitetest
As a social conservative, I believe that if either of these people becomes president, the country will have lost grievously.

I think that view is complete rubbish, however such is your right to sit out the vote.

51 posted on 03/23/2007 7:46:31 AM PDT by zarf (Her hair was of a dank yellow, and fell over her temples like sauerkraut......)
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To: Ultra Sonic 007

Barret is a Village Voice reporter and a leftie, which does not necessarily make what he writes factually inaccurate. It's tidbits like the one below that turned my stomach- and I voted for Rudy when I lived there.

"On August 3, 1999, Giuliani wrote a nasty letter to Crew and leaked it to the tabloids, together with a blind quote from an aide saying, "It seems he's got one foot out the door." This was the same day that Crew was burying his first wife, Angela, in a private ceremony in upstate Poughkeepsie. Crew had to respond to press calls before delivering his eulogy."

Rudy never did seem to understand that there is this thing called society which included these newfangled creatures called people with whom you do high-faultin' stuff like communicate. :) I liked some of his policies but his personality never rubbed me the right way.

Oh and this is my first post, hope I did it right.


52 posted on 03/23/2007 7:47:39 AM PDT by Simon_Smith
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To: Ultra Sonic 007
The Education Failure By every measure, public education under Giuliani stagnated or got worse. Reading and math scores deteriorated. Classroom overcrowding grew worse. The high school dropout rate has risen during the past three years. In 2001, in the citywide eighth-grade math test only 45 percent of white students met the standards, 14 percent of Latinos and 12 percent of blacks. This is well below the standards of other big cities. Giuliani did nothing to shift resources into the poorer districts. In 1999 he diverted funds for improving school facilities from Brooklyn and the Bronx (more minority and working class) to Staten Island and Queens (more white and middle class), where the borough presidents supported him politically. In eight years, Giuliani's most famous comment about public education was that the school system should be "blown up."

I guess if you think that throwing more and more money at the public school system, (which now teaches children about global warming and other such liberal pet projects) is the way to go, then you will agree with The Nation and disagree with Rudy.

If you think that redistribution of taxpayer money, rather than bringing teaching standards up is the way to go, then you will agree with The Nation and disagree with Rudy.

If you can't see the liberal spin that permeates this entire article, then I cannot help you separate fact from fiction.

53 posted on 03/23/2007 7:49:21 AM PDT by veronica ('My 80% ally is not my 20% enemy.' ........Rudy reminds us what Ronald Reagan said.)
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To: trisham

Yes, it is. And a good one. :)


54 posted on 03/23/2007 7:50:01 AM PDT by veronica ('My 80% ally is not my 20% enemy.' ........Rudy reminds us what Ronald Reagan said.)
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To: Corin Stormhands

Actually, we want the Rudy supporters to tell us what is wrong with it.

You of all people should know what happens when supporters of a candidate don't effectively respond to articles in the Nation, no matter how rediculous we think they are.

I will say that as a libertarian-leaning conservative when it comes to government authority and power (and the use and abuse of that power) the story of Desmerond always bothered me, even when it first happened, because leaking sealed court records to discredit people attacked by government agents is a serious issue.

We all understand the issue of Hillary and Bill and the 900 FBI files, and how they used the power of thier office to attack people by leaking personal information (like with Linda Tripp).

This incident shows Rudy to have the same ethical standard when defending his administration.


55 posted on 03/23/2007 7:50:34 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Ultra Sonic 007
There is nothing here I didn't know already. It pretty much covers it all: the good, the bad and the ugly. Most of the attacks on Giuliani are coming from the left: that he is a racist, etc. Well, I already know "The Nation" and Al Sharpton consider him a racist. But I see nothing that he has done in law enforcement that I vehemently disagree with, except gun control. Virtually every big city police chief in the country supports gun control, so the fact that he supported it does not surprise me. To me, he personifies the label, "Tough Law and Order Republican."

It is good that all these things are getting written now. They will be old news by the time the election rolls around. It is a natural part of the vetting process, and the reason why these candidates are out there early. The candidates like Gingrich and Thompson are hoping to jump in later because they want to avoid the scrutiny. Best to get it over with early and move on.

The article reluctantly acknowledges that New York City was improved under Giuliani's leadership. What they fail to point out is how seemingly an impossible task it was. Look at Washington DC for the past 30 years. Before Giuliani, the two cities were roughly parallel in debt, crime, decadence, etc. Imagine someone turning around Washington DC. That is the magnitude of what Giuliani accomplished, and that big picture really will not be degraded with a lot of personal scandal and inside baseball particulars.

56 posted on 03/23/2007 7:51:21 AM PDT by massadvj
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To: Ultra Sonic 007

Here's just one example of hyperbole:

'Sometimes it felt like he was trying to put the whole unruly, diverse city through obedience training, as he......, put up barricades at busy street crossings to modify pedestrian behavior'

I lived in New York at the time, and this was just one example of a simple common sense thing that needed to be implemented in order to avoid gridlock in the city.

It's kind of hard to explain, but imagine a four lane 5th Avenue going south, and a 2 lane 45th street going east. Now imagine a red light for 5th avenue (there is no independent walk light where all lanes are stopped.) So when the 45th street drivers are trying to turn right onto 5th avenue they were blocked during the WHOLE DURATION of their green light because of the pedestrians crossing on the south crossing, instead of the north one (where they didn't block traffic.)

It was a simple obvious solution, but someone had to get down to street level and implement it, and Guiliani did.
(and then all the newspapers started whining how he's a control freak...)


57 posted on 03/23/2007 7:52:10 AM PDT by Sarah
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To: silverleaf

Well, lets hope that Rudy does a better job of picking people to work for his administration than he did picking his 2nd wife then.


58 posted on 03/23/2007 7:52:45 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Corin Stormhands
And yet a huge contingency of FReepers will spend the weekend telling us why they're right "on this article."

Who knew that The Nation had so many fans at FR?? :)

59 posted on 03/23/2007 7:53:28 AM PDT by veronica ('My 80% ally is not my 20% enemy.' ........Rudy reminds us what Ronald Reagan said.)
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To: Gop1040

So that when it is used against our nominee after we stupidly choose him, the supporters of Rudy have something smarter to say in respons than "Why post this trash".


60 posted on 03/23/2007 7:54:29 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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