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Saw This One Coming (children of incest)
Townhall ^ | March 23, 2007 | Chuck Colson

Posted on 03/23/2007 5:32:56 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Edited on 03/23/2007 5:59:48 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

The BBC recently ran a story about a German couple named Patrick and Susan. The couple has been living together unmarried for the past six years and has four children. In a continent full of unmarried couples with children, this particular pair stands out--because they are brother and sister.

As a young child, Patrick was given up for adoption. He finally met his mother and the rest of his biological family, including Susan, seven years ago. After their mother died, the two became, in the BBC's words, "lovers."

When German authorities learned about the "relationship," they placed three of their children--two of whom have disabilities--in foster care and charged Patrick with incest. Patrick has already served two years and faces more jail time.

While this story is certainly sordid, unfortunately, it's not unique. What makes it noteworthy is that the couple is challenging German laws against incest in Germany's Federal Constitutional Court.

As the couple's lawyer, Endrik Wilhelm, told the BBC, "this law is out of date, and it breaches the couple's civil rights." According to the lawyer, the "couple [is] not harming anyone," and the ban "is discrimination."

To those like Juergen Kunze, a geneticist at Berlin's Charite Hospital, who cite the genetic risks to the offspring of incest, Wilhelm replies: "Why are disabled parents" or "people with hereditary diseases [and] women over 40" allowed to have children?

Anyone who claims to be surprised by this case has not been paying attention to American law. In Lawrence v. Texas, the Supreme Court found that "consenting" adults had a right to privacy when it comes to sexual relations--any kind of sexual relations. As Justice Scalia pointed out in his stinging dissent, the logic employed by the majority of the court could be applied to laws against "bigamy, same-sex marriage [and] adult incest."

If you deny that there's a "substantial government interest in protecting order and morality," as courts increasingly are doing, where do you draw the line? Certainly not at same-sex "marriage," as we have seen. The fact is that, as Dr. Kunze puts it, laws like these "based on long traditions in Western societies" have not been stopping courts lately.

The ugly truth is that, absent a "substantial government interest in protecting order and morality," the incestuous couple has the better argument. In a culture where personal autonomy trumps long-established moral traditions, our revulsion does look like the kind of prejudice that Lawrence rejected as the basis for laws.

Like I said, none of this should come as a surprise. Instead, it ought to serve as a warning of where the law is headed. Let's pray that this time we don't need a rampaging T-Rex to confirm our worst fears.

Today's BreakPoint offer: "Marriage in America: BreakPoint Goes to the Heart of the Marriage Debate" (CD).

For further reading and information:

Roberto Rivera, "The Ballad of Patrick and Susan," The Point, 8 March 2007.

Tristana Moore, "Couple Stand by Forbidden Love," BBC News, 7 March 2007.

BreakPoint Commentary No. 050817, "Taking the Plunge: A Case of Incest."

BreakPoint Commentary No. 060106, "Further Down the Slope: Massachusetts Senate Bill 938."

Robert George, "Rick Santorum is Right," National Review Online, 27 May 2003.

Chuck Colson is the Chairman and Founder of BreakPoint and of Prison Fellowship Ministries.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: children; germany; homosexualagenda; incest; law; lawrencevstexas; lawsuit; sex

1 posted on 03/23/2007 5:32:59 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Well, first things first. There are four children of this union. Are any of them having genetic abnormalities, like compromised immune systems, for example? This ought to be the first concern, with their parents a very distant second.


2 posted on 03/23/2007 5:41:41 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

After incest, the right to procreate with your pet will be next!


3 posted on 03/23/2007 5:43:49 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: GSlob

Yea, one of them sits on the back porch and plays a banjo.


4 posted on 03/23/2007 5:45:48 PM PDT by doc1019 (Fred Thompson '08)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

The fact that you can't procreate with your pet is irrelevant in that some normal couples can't procreate either. Let Fido and Freda adopt and we can all be forced to pretend it's a family.


5 posted on 03/23/2007 5:46:23 PM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
...the right to procreate with your pet will be next!

It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Spot!

6 posted on 03/23/2007 5:50:27 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Cultural decline sets in when the government protects behaviors from individual moral consequences. The issue is not about telling consenting adults, at gunpoint, what they can and cannot do in the bedroom. The issue is forcing others, at gunpoint, to condone these actions by making it illegal for them to pronounce verdicts dictated by their own values (by firing, evicting, refusing service to, rejecting from social groups/neighborhood associations, or not considering for employment individuals they find to be acting in a morally bankrupt manner).

In short, it should not be illegal for me to impose my own values upon another in response to any of their actions. As it stands today, we are forced to condone all manner of revolting behavior or be in violation of the law - oh, and not just condone it, but actively SUBSIDIZE depravity by picking up the tab for the negative consequences. Both mechanisms that act to squash individual moral choice need to be extinguished.

7 posted on 03/23/2007 5:51:09 PM PDT by M203M4 (Ignorance of basic math underlies economic ignorance and helps fuel socialism.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
After incest, the right to procreate with your pet will be next!

Polygamy will be first.
8 posted on 03/23/2007 5:51:16 PM PDT by MAexile (Bats left, votes right)
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To: doc1019

Well, from the info in the article the oldest child would now be about 5 - barely enough to play a banjo, but old enough for some abnormalities to show.


9 posted on 03/23/2007 5:53:36 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

10 posted on 03/23/2007 5:55:28 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: GSlob

Ok, ok … so he will be playing the banjo on the back porch in the future … shees. ;)


11 posted on 03/23/2007 5:56:34 PM PDT by doc1019 (Fred Thompson '08)
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To: GSlob
" they placed three of their children--two of whom have disabilities-

Hard to say with just that.

12 posted on 03/23/2007 5:56:41 PM PDT by TLI (ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA, MMP AZ 2005, TxMMP El Paso Oct+April 2006 TxMMP Laredo - El Paso)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Ugh.


13 posted on 03/23/2007 5:58:30 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: M203M4

You nailed it. You can apply your words to any issue the 'Nanny Staters' and sexual freaks of today want to impose upon the rest of us.

Well said!


14 posted on 03/23/2007 6:00:00 PM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
I'm a libertarian so I believe people have the right to do what they want as long as it does not interfere with our freedoms.

However, they should not be allowed to have children together, and the sister should had her tubes tied. If they wanted to have kids, then they should adopt.

15 posted on 03/23/2007 6:04:15 PM PDT by MinorityRepublican (Everyone that doesn't like what America and President Bush has done for Iraq can all go to HELL)
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To: GSlob
"When German authorities learned about the "relationship," they placed three of their children--two of whom have disabilities--in foster care and charged Patrick with incest. Patrick has already served two years and faces more jail time."

Looks like two children have abnormalities.

What the Gay marriage fans are likely to say when Gay marriage is compared to Incestuous Marriage is that Gay marriage does not have the genetic risk. If people want a certain kond of fun they will find ways to rationalize it.

16 posted on 03/23/2007 6:06:46 PM PDT by Anti-Bubba182
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Ironic that liberals will say that morality shouldn't intrude into a social issue, yet they fail to see, that the lack of morality leads to increased social costs.

In this case, the possibility of subsidized health care should the couples offspring have serious health problems.

How about this, I'll agree to let people do what they want, as long as they agree to leave the taxpayers alone when they have to deal with the consequences of their actions.
17 posted on 03/23/2007 6:07:44 PM PDT by Sergio (If a tree fell on a mime in the forest, would he make a sound?)
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To: GSlob
"Are any of them having genetic abnormalities?" I think I dated one of them.
18 posted on 03/23/2007 6:13:37 PM PDT by Integrityrocks
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To: M203M4

Post #7. Well said.


19 posted on 03/23/2007 6:14:48 PM PDT by Integrityrocks
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Jerry Springer Law.. Anyone Anytime Anywhere for any reason...


20 posted on 03/23/2007 6:21:24 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: doc1019

OMG.....I am LMAO....


21 posted on 03/23/2007 6:24:39 PM PDT by mystery-ak (My Son, My Soldier, My Hero........God Speed Jonathan......)
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To: MinorityRepublican

Well, there are a lot of people who should not have kids nor should they be allowed to adopt. Just been reading about the couple who overdosed their young daughter after chronic ingestion of clonidine.
It is hard to say if these people were simply idiots involved with a potent drug or if they were criminal in their deeds. Also sounds like they were a bit lazy and it was easier to medicate the child rather than work out the problems.


22 posted on 03/23/2007 6:38:50 PM PDT by mel
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To: mel
Also, that's why I'm getting tired of seeing many kids being medicated with Ritalin nowadays. If they are truly hyperactive, than for goodness' sake, let them outside more often. Join the Boy Scouts. Play baseball, basketball, and football.

That'll cure it.

But nowadays parents and school administrators are too lazy and/or inept to tackle the root cause of the so-called AD/HD crisis.

23 posted on 03/23/2007 6:44:45 PM PDT by MinorityRepublican (Everyone that doesn't like what America and President Bush has done for Iraq can all go to HELL)
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To: doc1019
"Yea, one of them sits on the back porch and plays a banjo."

LOL!!

24 posted on 03/23/2007 6:49:31 PM PDT by KoRn (FRED THOMPSON FOR PRESIDENT!)
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To: hosepipe

Unless you try to home-school your kid in Germany. Then the police take the kid away from Mom & Dad and lock her up in the psych ward. I guess if you home-school your children, you're a menace to society because you might tell the kids that Bro marrying Sis is an evil thing. Can't have such judgementalism now, can we.


25 posted on 03/23/2007 6:57:33 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: M203M4

Well said. Keep saying it.


26 posted on 03/23/2007 7:02:05 PM PDT by keats5 (tolerance of intolerant people is cultural suicide)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Walk down any urban street in America and ask the kids who their father is -- ask them if they know who their brothers or sisters are. The next generation has absolutely no idea in many cases if the partner in bed with them is a close relation.


27 posted on 03/23/2007 7:05:03 PM PDT by devane617 (Let's take back our country -- get a job in the MSM, or education system. We need you.)
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To: mel
There was a tv show on last night about a mom who had been making her daughter so ill that she had been in the hospital over 150 times by age 5. Now, that is just plain out sick!
28 posted on 03/23/2007 7:06:00 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: MinorityRepublican
Also, that's why I'm getting tired of seeing many kids being medicated with Ritalin nowadays. If they are truly hyperactive, than for goodness' sake, let them outside more often. Join the Boy Scouts. Play baseball, basketball, and football.

I have no doubt that my son would be similarly labeled and medicated if we hadn't homeschooled and had him on the swim team. After seeing the difference in him when he's getting worn out every day at practice and what he was like a couple weeks after the season was over, I'm convinced that the vast majority of what's labeled hyperactivity is just the normal energy levels of kids that need to be released in physical activity. Yeah, it takes time and committment, but it's well worth the effort.

29 posted on 03/23/2007 7:14:37 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: MamaB

It IS a sickness -- namely, Munchausen-by-proxy Syndrome.


30 posted on 03/23/2007 7:18:35 PM PDT by Maceman (This is America. Why must we press "1" for English?)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
In Lawrence v. Texas, the Supreme Court found that "consenting" adults had a right to privacy when it comes to sexual relations--any kind of sexual relations.

At the time, the elites had a good laugh at the idea that the state could have a compelling interest in what people do in their bedrooms. I would direct them to this column.

31 posted on 03/23/2007 7:18:47 PM PDT by denydenydeny ("We have always been, we are, and I hope that we always shall be detested in France"--Wellington)
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To: MinorityRepublican
you contradicted yourself. How are your rights violated by their actions?

Taken to the nth degree, this is what happens. Civil rights is used as an arguement to advance every conceivable perversion known to man. Community standards once the bedrock of our moral underpinnings have been continuously diluted in order to advocate the incidious concept of group identity. Individuals who are 'victimized' in society because they belong to a particular group or segment of society. Individualism is long past. The legal system is tied up in knots as a result of this. The concept of rights have been so grossly misused to the extent that one can argue in a court of law that his rights are violated if he can't rape a child or have sex with his dog, etc. Liberty is freedom from tyranny not the right to do what you want. Otherwise if everyone had a right to do what they want, no social order can exist

We are all born with god given rights. But a society that denies the most important one, the right to be born, all other 'civil rights' are compromised. Secular progressives have gone out of their way to deny this most basic of rights by doing what they do best; dehumanize the child and render it a mass of cells or worse categorize them as 'not a human being'. The same logic can be applied to the diluton of the family.

The moral foundation of all societies is the family. From the family we extend our moral standards to the community which in turn extends to the nation and our civilization. order is maintained as a result. Destroy the bedrock and you have disorder. Disorder requires intervention from the state to re-establish order. Order requires the tyranny of the state to enforce it. Liberty cannot exist as a result. Freedom comes at a price. Defend it with your life if you must. Or one day we will wake up and the constitution of the US of A will be nothing but ink on paper. Secular progressives in their never ending quest to define every human exercise as a'human right' will lead us to this path.

32 posted on 03/23/2007 7:54:29 PM PDT by bubman
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To: bubman
That's why I am a proponent of States' rights. I believe that only the States should have the right to regulate this sort of behavior.

The Federal government has no right to regulate this manner. However, the States should ban incest, or at least making sure that the couple do not reproduce because their children are likely to cause burden in greater society which we have to pay for their health care and public education.

33 posted on 03/23/2007 8:53:43 PM PDT by MinorityRepublican (Everyone that doesn't like what America and President Bush has done for Iraq can all go to HELL)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: M203M4

Bingo! Bravo!


35 posted on 03/23/2007 10:18:51 PM PDT by CountryBumpkin (Don't get dropped into the liberal thunk tank. Use the brain God gave you.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
After incest, the right to procreate with your pet will be next!

Well, there are a few technical biological problems to be solved before this becomes a real issue.

< }B^)

36 posted on 03/24/2007 12:40:19 AM PDT by Erasmus (This tagline on sabbatical.)
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To: John Williams
that in a nutshell is what this debate is really all about. the left will not relent until they achieve their goals one child, one family at a time.
37 posted on 03/24/2007 6:52:13 AM PDT by bubman
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Okay, I think I need to barf.


38 posted on 03/24/2007 3:22:18 PM PDT by mental vengeance
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To: mental vengeance

39 posted on 03/24/2007 4:24:01 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Will I be suspended again for this remark?)
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