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To: K4Harty
[...feel free to provide what you think are your 2-3 *best* examples, and I'll be glad to go over them for you.]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on uniformitarian geology and the explanation for things like the Matterhorn, mammoth graveyards in the arctic/Siberia, The Lewis overthrust, La Brea tar pits, Sicilian fossil graveyards over 4000 feet above sea level on Mt. Etna, The Malta caves and how they should not be placed in the deluvian model?

Hey, that's more than 2-3 items! ;-)

First, "uniformitarian geology" is rather a misnomer. Uniformitarianism in the more literal sense was proposed by Hutton in 1785 and Lyell in 1830. However, a strictly "uniformitarian" view of geology was widely understood to be incorrect by around 1900, if not even earlier.

Modern "uniformitarian geology" includes a lot of "non-uniform" events like meteor strikes, volcanic events, avalanches, etc., but unfortunately the name has sort of stuck and gives many people (including many creationists) the wrong idea that modern geology somehow insists that everything happens slooowwly and gradually.

Now for your list:

the explanation for things like the Matterhorn,

Er, what *about* the Matterhorn? If you mean the creationinst claim that the fact that some strata in the Matterhorn are in the "wrong order" is somehow an argument against the science of modern geology, it's not. The Alps, including the Matterhorn, are in part the result of a thrust fault, meaning that a large section of the land cracked at an angle, then one piece of it was pushed up and over the adjacent part. Thus instead of the rock strata being in the more traditional order of oldest-to-newest (let's call it A-B-C-D-E-F-etc.), it "repeats some layers (as in "A-B-C-D-A-B-C-D-E-F -- the "ABCD" stack repeats, because those are the ones which existed at the time the thrust-fault slid two "layercakes" of strata, which at the time had been side-by-side, up on top of each other). This is covered nicely in Wikipedia's entry on Geology of the Alps, among many other places.

mammoth graveyards in the arctic/Siberia,

Again, what about them? Various "mammoth graveyards" were formed in different ways, in different places, at different times, and across varying timespans. Sometimes a herd was killed simultaneously and together, as in this one involving a herd caught in a volcano's eruption and buried in ash. This one on the other hand was due to a sinkhole that formed a "trap" that mammoths could get into but not climb back out of, and died. Another "trap" graveyard of a different type is the famous LaBrea Tar Pits, which contains the remains of a great many mammoths and other kinds of animals which became mired in the tar and died, across a large period of time. Still other mammoth graveyards are due to animals caught in a flash flood, as in the Berelekh graveyard in Sibera. Not only do natural floods often become large and swift and catch animals unawares, but cold areas like Sibera run the risk of sudden "breakthrough" floods from melting glaciers, which can collect meltwater in lakes and then eventually dump them suddenly as the ice basin they are in melts further.

The Lewis overthrust,

See above. Overthrusts are standard geology, due to plate tectonics. See also: Geology in Error?: The Lewis Thrust and Thrust Faults and the Lewis Overthrust

Some creationist sites like to ridicule the notion of big sections of landscape gradually sliding up and over other sections, but a) it can be seen in progress even today, and b) "flood geology" has to invoke pretty much the same kind of process to explain the overlaps, but even *faster* (by a factor of a millionfold), so...

La Brea tar pits,

What about it? Here's a page on how such tar pits form.

Sicilian fossil graveyards over 4000 feet above sea level on Mt. Etna,

Mt. Etna is a big volcano (11,000 feet high, covering 480 square miles). Between major eruptions plants and animals live on the slopes of the volcano (including as high as 4000 feet above sea level and higher -- there are forests on Etna up to 7000 feet) as they would on any mountain, and then get entombed the next time the volcano has a big eruption. Somewhere deep on the slops of Mt. St. Helens too there are graveyards of the animals that used to live on it before its big eruption in 1980.

The Malta caves

Again, what about them? The island of Malta has caves... Lots of places have caves.

and how they should not be placed in the deluvian model?

Some geological features are caused by floods, but there's no evidence of any flood as large as or as widespread as the flood described in Genesis, and a lot of evidence that no such flood has or could have occurred. See this post for a lot of links on that subject.

244 posted on 03/31/2007 8:13:28 PM PDT by Ichneumon (Ignorance is curable, but the afflicted has to want to be cured.)
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To: Ichneumon; K4Harty
Some geological features are caused by floods, but there's no evidence of any flood as large as or as widespread as the flood described in Genesis, and a lot of evidence that no such flood has or could have occurred. See this post for a lot of links on that subject.

Actually, I have some additional evidence not covered in your many links.

There is a cave in southern Alaska called On Your Knees Cave, which had a partial human skeleton dated to 10,300 years.

That individual produce some mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) which matched living individuals stretching all the way down the west coasts of North and South Americas, to the tip of Tierra del Fuego.

This shows a span of some 10,300 years of mtDNA not interrupted by the mtDNA expected of Noah's female companions (as mtDNA is passed down only along the female line).

10,300 years with no interruption means there was no global flood at about 4,300 years ago. (This is just one of many such examples.)

252 posted on 03/31/2007 8:31:38 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Ichneumon
Some geological features are caused by floods, but there's no evidence of any flood as large as or as widespread as the flood described in Genesis, and a lot of evidence that no such flood has or could have occurred.

You're an evil man!

;->

277 posted on 04/01/2007 2:56:15 AM PDT by dread78645 (Evolution. A doomed theory since 1859.)
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To: Ichneumon; Coyoteman
Thank you for the reply. 1/4 cup of coffee on board and I get this reply. Today is gonna be a good day. I will peruse this and clear up a few of my questions and follow your links. Like Coyoteman, who sends me a lot of links, I will follow yours and either answer my questions or come up with more.

I believe we disagree on some assumptions, but I only ask questions to learn more. I do not believe that ethos will be changed on the FR threads but the volume of information that can be exchanged is HUGH. :o)

What is your background on these subjects? Mine is strictly educational, although almost rabid. I study these arguments almost daily and have volumes of notes and books. I have been do this for about 12 years. I am not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV, (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn express last night) If you got that joke I'll be really impressed

I'll clear up the questions and get back to you. The arctic graveyards, the Malta caves and Mt. Edna all have voluminous fossil graveyards with literally thousands of fossils piled on top of each other caused by something (volcanic activity, deluvian action or mass geological upheaval) I long for more recent reports on such activities but realize the informational vetting process is a lot more rigid and controlled now than it was in the past, which accounts for most evidential writings available to the layperson being so old.

Back at a later time,

K4

Pinging coyoteman because I used his name in the post, as per FR rules.)

285 posted on 04/01/2007 5:50:06 AM PDT by IllumiNaughtyByNature (I buy gas for my Hummer with the Carbon Offsets I sell on Ebay!)
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